Steve K9Pro Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Tess: I use a clicker and I can click a lot faster than I say anything. I also find it difficult to not say yes in a high pitched squeal and so I'm sure my dog would prefer my to shutup on that count. K9: I find that when using verbal markers, it promotes the handler to use a more positive body language & frame of mind, & that many of those that use clickers tend to leave everything to the clicker. Tess: And no my dog isn't bouncing around the walls stressed K9: the studies, or one very good one was a submission, doesnt indicate this will happen, it's like a pin prick in your finger whilst your focussed on something else, split second of discomfort made up by reward. Tess: As for being it being a lazy person's "yes" - isn't it a case of what works best for the person and dog, as everyone keeps saying? K9: I too prefer anything that makes life easy, lol.. Tess: Personally I think it'd be beneficial to condition a verbal marker AND the clicker so you can use whatever suits the exercise or conditions. K9: I dont feel that having more than one marker is ideal, in your dogs head one may be of more positive value than the other, you wont know that & this may affetct training. I use yes also, I vary the value of it to recover the dog from stress faster if I need to, "yes" said quietly & fast is encouraging for the dog to take the next step, "yeeeeeessss" said with higher volume & stretched out may be at the completion of the excercise... I personally feel its hard to replace that with "click". or even "click click click"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Just on a different note - in the old days of lets say hunting for a fox (last century for argument sake) I dont think hunders used clickers... I can not recall farmers now with working dogs using clikers. Its all voice. And if you go aroud the world analysing the verbal markers in various languages you might see that they are very simmilar in tonation, lenght, speed etc. Im am not to say that CT isnt good, I have seen it work very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Just on a different note - in the old days of lets say hunting for a fox (last century for argument sake) I dont think hunders used clickers...I can not recall farmers now with working dogs using clikers. Its all voice. And if you go aroud the world analysing the verbal markers in various languages you might see that they are very simmilar in tonation, lenght, speed etc. Im am not to say that CT isnt good, I have seen it work very well. Didn't/don't a lot of farmers use whistles and vary lengths of whistles etc? I know they aren't "marking" anything with them but just saying it's not all voice. I don't think they used E collars either The dogs who were harder to train or needed a different style of training back then may just have been killed or sold as pets. Either way, good thing we have more tools today and a variety to choose from. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 K9: I find that when using verbal markers, it promotes the handler to use a more positive body language & frame of mind, & that many of those that use clickers tend to leave everything to the clicker. I agree, and as someone (yogi?) said before, some people forget to praise all together. That's just a handler problem though. It's the same as people putting on a halt and never training loose lead, or only correcting with a check chain whilst never praising a correct position. K9: I dont feel that having more than one marker is ideal, in your dogs head one may be of more positive value than the other, you wont know that & this may affetct training. Couldn't this happen anyway - with food for example? Or a toy? Or a handler may not pay close attention to the dog and think a "louder" YES is encouraging, whereas the dog might prefer a "yes" said in a more neutral tone. I have two because I don't want to have to use the clicker on walks, or for when I'm not training and the dog does something good that I want to mark. On the other hand I prefer to use the clicker than voice in other situations. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Most cats, dogs and other wild animals which feature in movies are trained using a clicker. This is because it is faster and shapes the exact behaviour. I too use verbal cues as i don't always use a clicker, but I find that I can mark the precise behaviour with a clicker and tend to be a little "slower off the mark" with verbal. Hey, each to their own and I think there is a time and place for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Horses for courses kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 K9: e collars are commonly used by farmers today though, they would be the largest end user group in the country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 Tess: Couldn't this happen anyway - with food for example? Or a toy? K9: the toy when used as a trining tool is delivered by you, so this shouldnt happen. Tess: Or a handler may not pay close attention to the dog and think a "louder" YES is encouraging, whereas the dog might prefer a "yes" said in a more neutral tone. K9: this does happen, but its poor handling rather than poor technique... K: Most cats, dogs and other wild animals which feature in movies are trained using a clicker. This is because it is faster and shapes the exact behaviour. K9: whilst this is true for static or slower commands, action sequences are taught in drive, no clicker. Again, it will be the choice of the trainer (or wrangler as they are called lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Didn't/don't a lot of farmers use whistles and vary lengths of whistles etc? I know they aren't "marking" anything with them but just saying it's not all voice. the ones that I have recently seen in a documantary didnt. The were in Chile farming mountain goats..... Just voice...... and the commands and sounds were sooo simmilar to those used by some old Polish folk I know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Myszka I watched a docco on the making of Stuart Little and the cats were trained using a clicker. Same with some dogs in various commercials. Of course Stuart Little is a computer generated figure and the cat's faces (mimicking the talking) were computer generated as well. I must say though that I am yet to meet a farmer who uses an e-collar. They are most likely to put a bullet in the dogs head than spend money on collar and time training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 K9: the biggest e collar market in Oz are farmers, lil bit of trivia for you... Saves shooting them when you can train past things that you previously couldnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 This is primarily why E collars came about, for the bird dog people and farmers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 K9: there are people growing wings now? fofl... j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 K9: there are people growing wings now? fofl... j/k Only the bird brains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 K9: I thought they were extinct after battling the Chest Beaters...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 OMG!! You mean my team won? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 10, 2005 Author Share Posted November 10, 2005 K9: lol, Im not the umpire, just a spectator. Some think Im a team of my own! Have a good nite Tarzan.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 (edited) you wouldnt if it wasnt for some great side line supporters Edited November 10, 2005 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 you wouldnt if it wasnt for some great side line supporters Okay i will mail you out an autograohed picure of Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Great I can pin it on my wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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