Socialisation & Neutralisation

[Sardog]

K9: huh? can you explain?

Sorry K9, just my warped sense of humour.!!!!!! lol.

This topic has been discussed at length for quite some time now with varied opinions from both genders.....!

I was just interested in your opinion regarding that theory and I agree with you - ...OF COURSE, I am female handler with a male dog.

Looking forward to your workshop.

Julie

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: lol, ok, I think when people start training the dogs mind through drive they realise training isnt about gruff vocal tones & powerful corrections...

[haven]

K9: this dog probably see's you as the true Alpha & goes into pack drive when interacting with you, this is how it is supposed to be.

Positive socialisation programs destroy that.

Can you expand on this for me K9?

I can't see how posisitve socialization would destroy the posibility of being an effective leader for your dog and pack drive.

Or do you mean that if a dog that has been socialized to associate a posisitve value with things other than the handler, then alphs status and pack drive will never be as good because you would have competition in the form of toher dogs, people etc, for the dogs attention and drives?

Also i was wondering, if you have a dog that has been neutrally socialized and one who has been positively socialized to other dogs and each dog was attacked by a dog. Assuming both came away from the incident with the same issues, would one dogs issues be easier or harder than the other to resolve?

[Clicking Mad]

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Edited January 7, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[Leema]

Rex is affraid of a clicker ;) so I never used it.

I've heard that the top of a pen would work as a marker - or muffling the clicker in something. Some dogs are scared of the volume.

Thanks very much, K9, for answering my questions! I'll continue to watch this thread to make sure that I totally get it.

[Kavik]

Also i-clicks have a softer click and I think there is one out with an adjustable volume? I expected Zoe to be scared of the noise but she was fine.

[haven]

A marker is a marker, it doesn't have to 'click.'

[yogibear]

You could use a verbal marker a wrod i use 'yes' im not good with clickers i lose them funble with them if i have a dog lead food dumbell and clicker im a mess

so i use a verbal which regardles of what people tell me works just as well and im quicker with it than a clicker

[Steve K9Pro]

Yes I only use verbals... & only when "teaching"...

[Erny]

You could use a verbal marker a wrod i use 'yes' im not good with clickers i lose them funble with them if i have a dog lead food dumbell and clicker im a mess

YB - for the same reasons, I use "yes" as a marker too. Some people are adept with being able to hold the clicker ..... I prefer my hands to be free. Between the leash, the "prey toy", I feel a bit 'crowded' by having to hold a clicker too. I tried tying one around my wrist, at one stage, but still found I was fumbling to try to grab it .... threw my timing way out.

[yogibear]

itried hangin it round my neck but kept grabbing the wrong end i tried the wrist thing too same problem Im not into gimmicky things and to me the clicker is a gimmick dogs are rats or whales A friend of mine that doe sa lot of TV work using a verbal he sauys for other animals he uses a clicker well he has a sound box with different sounds for each animal but he says he never seen it necessary wehn it comes to dogs

yb

[Steve K9Pro]

H:

Can you expand on this for me K9?

I can't see how posisitve socialization would destroy the posibility of being an effective leader for your dog and pack drive.

K9: sure, dogs that are too doggy for their other canine pack members take too much leadership from the other higher ranking dogs.

When the human enters the situation, they may not be in a position every single time to assert pack position.

It ends up as the human often considered a resource, rarely do these dogs look for emotional contact with the hanlder, = no or little pack drive.

H:

Or do you mean that if a dog that has been socialized to associate a posisitve value with things other than the handler, then alphs status and pack drive will never be as good because you would have competition in the form of toher dogs, people etc, for the dogs attention and drives?

K9: without getting technical, if you are a positive value & everything else is zero, that will automatically place you in Alpha. Yopur presence triggers pack drive.

H:

Also i was wondering, if you have a dog that has been neutrally socialized and one who has been positively socialized to other dogs and each dog was attacked by a dog. Assuming both came away from the incident with the same issues, would one dogs issues be easier or harder than the other to resolve?

K9: I suppose anyones guess is acceptable in a hypothetical.

CM:

I have been known to put 2 in a down while I get the 3rd to do something, so far, and I haven't really tried very hard, they hear me rewarding the one I'm working with and break ... come running up for their reward, since they were good and stayed lol

K9: thats an ob issue with the release command, I always put in an exit strategy so that this dont occur.

[Kavik]

You could use a verbal marker a wrod i use 'yes' im not good with clickers i lose them funble with them if i have a dog lead food dumbell and clicker im a mess

I have a hard time handling a clicker too, especially with dumbell work, way too much to hold and not enough hands! LOL

[Herr Rottweiler]

Why bother to use a clicker at all when the word, "Yes" has so many advantages

1. It doesn't cost you anything

2. You don't have to look for it if you misplace it

3. You don't need a pocket for it or a super duper training bag

4. Clickers are a gimmick

5. You don't have to hold anything

6. It's always on hand at anytime

"Yes" is so good that Optus uses it as their main slogan

Seriously, I recieved a couple of clickers at an expo I went to and I gave them away.

[Kelpie-i]

I only just come into this thread, so please accept my aplogies if I'm way off the mark.

Clickers.....love them!

I know what you say that a marker is a marker but this is what I used to say until I started using one. Have taught my dogs new tricks in half the time it was taking with a verbal "Yes". The clicker sounds the same constantly and you are able to mark the precise behaviour with the exact same marking sound. Of course you must follow with praise, treats etc.

What I have also noticed is that when training using a vocal "Yes" my dog's enthusiasm just isn't the same as when I use the clicker.

BTW, I mainly use the clicker for teaching tricks. But I have perfected my dog's heeling with continued focus with it

I have recently purchased a "click n play" squid which is a click in the shape of a bouncy squid for those dogs who are not food driven but love to chase balls.

The only downside of a clicker is there is a chance of forgetting to praise the dog.

[yogibear]

I must be weird because i find i can teach my dogs new things more quickly without a clicker yet people always say its faster

But then ive been using a verbal marker for fifteen years so i guess my timing is pretty good i played around with a clicker for awhile with our cocker just to see if i got quicker responses but i didnt but then when they do the test where you droip a ball and have to click before it hits the table i always say yes quicker than i click

There is a paper somewhere about how the clicker works triggering the amaglyda part of the brain which means the dog absorbs information quicker as it by passes the usual learning part of the brain but this area is alos the fight flight response like getting a sudden wake up when a techer bangs on the table and many clicker dogs thoug they seem to be rsponding with more enthusiam are actually showing signs of stress and producing hectic behaviour

This is just my observations ove the many years

yb

[Herr Rottweiler]

I must be weird because i find i can teach my dogs new things more quickly without a clicker yet people always say its faster

Yogi, I share those sentiments! I tell one of my classes, (which is based on complex skills training) that a clicker is a lazy persons "Yes". However, there are poeple that swear by them so, Horses for Courses.

[yogibear]

Yup horses for courses i agree

yb

[Steve K9Pro]

YB:

There is a paper somewhere about how the clicker works triggering the amaglyda part of the brain which means the dog absorbs information quicker as it by passes the usual learning part of the brain but this area is alos the fight flight response like getting a sudden wake up when a techer bangs on the table and many clicker dogs thoug they seem to be rsponding with more enthusiam are actually showing signs of stress and producing hectic behaviour

K9: there are several studies that are aiming toward the sharpness of the clicker turns on the nerves on the dog for a millisecond, allowing information to be saved by the dog as "vital''. just like survival information is.

Turning on the nerves of a dog is a very fast way to teach a dog anything from obedience to protection. They use compulsion to turn on the nerves & can get big resuls fast, but it is hard on the dogs.

I think that the section of the brain that deals with flight/fight behaviours is quite unstable & if I felt that CT did actually have negative effects, I would say so.

I have read the studies & it makes for quite good theory, not 100% convinced the theory = facts..

[Guest Tess32]

Interesting.

I use a clicker and I can click a lot faster than I say anything. I also find it difficult to not say yes in a high pitched squeal and so I'm sure my dog would prefer my to shutup on that count.

And no my dog isn't bouncing around the walls stressed

As for being it being a lazy person's "yes" - isn't it a case of what works best for the person and dog, as everyone keeps saying?

Personally I think it'd be beneficial to condition a verbal marker AND the clicker so you can use whatever suits the exercise or conditions.

Nat