Socialisation & Neutralisation

[MonElite]

I only have one regreat about ecollar...

that I didnt get one earlier when K9 told me to.

I of course knew better and didnt listen to any reasoning, until.... I gave up or more - decided that Im too lazy and dont have enough time to put into training the beast.

Its about 3-4 months since I got it and I really didnt put that much of an effort into training, but we have a great sit, sit at the distance and a recall is pretty much there as well (although K9 will not agree becouse Rex decided not to do it in front of him)

I have used it recently when I had a visiting puppy dobie girl that was of course bound to get raped by my dog. She didnt, dogs off leash and with help of ecollar I showed my dog that humping her is not what I want to see.

Thinking of a humping action, stim on, recall comply reward.

He figured out quick smart that if he wants to spend time with her he has to be nice and do what I let him do not what he decided or desires.

[Leema]

Thanks for the interesting discussion, K9. I've read the whole thing, I think. I have a few questions for you - which I ask because I'm curious about using your methods and not because I disagree with you (wanted to make it clear!).

You've said the alpha is supposed to be the 'be all and end all'. (Which I understand and agree with.) How does isolating puppies from 'the pack' compare to pack life 'in the wild'? (As, obviously, 'in the wild', pups would be with the adult dogs and not by themselves.) Where do your other dogs come into the pack structure? Do your dogs have a structure aside from you?

You've said that you do not encourage dogs to 'think for themselves' (work on solving puzzles) as it is a form of stress, but I have heard of people who encourage dogs to actively partake in puzzle solving in order to activate the dogs mind, discouraging boredom and so problem behaviour, and also 'mold' the mind to be more receptive to you. One particular believer in this is Mogens Eliasen. What do you think of Mogens Eliasen's ideas?

This page specifically about his brainwork book - http://k9joy.com/BrainWorkForSmartDogs/index.php?camp=1975

His entire site: http://k9joy.com/

I am not sure whether your adult dogs are allowed to interact with one another when they're not home - do you worry that, having not had lots of experience with other dogs, that they may fight? Or do they simply not pay enough attention to one another for this to be a consideration/concern of yours?

I have heard, suggested in the past, that if a dog lays at a door that you've closed or something similar he is rebelling against your alpha-ism (...word?). Do your dogs do this in their desire to be with you? Do you believe this is them threatening their alpha-ness?

Is it possible for dogs to perhaps 'pretend' to not be fixated on you, as so they may return their attention to you and be praised? (e.g. dog sees bird, dog runs up to birds, turns around and comes back to you - just to get your praise)

Thanks so much for creating such an interesting discussion.

Though some people have responded to these questions, that I asked on pg 15 (I think), I would really appreciate K9's responses to these questions. If it is the same as I've already given, that is satisfactory. Just would like to know if this is the case or not.

[Clicking Mad]

...

Edited January 7, 2008 by Clicking Mad

[Erny]

Plus, they spend all day with each other ... ain't no getting around that! ... so how would I neutralise them to each other NOW, as their relationship stands, and our living arrangements are organised?

K9 has mentioned, earlier, that once a dog has received a +value factor, there's no going back, so you wouldn't be able to start the neutralisation program in so far as it relates to your dog/dog query. If you're going to neutralise your dog, it needs to start from a puppy. What you (or anyone else) could do, though, is work up in drive and increase your leadership value.

[ish]

I'm very interested in these ideas. It would suit me and my dogs because they have to be seperated anyway and I do obedience work, games and exercise with them individually at the moment.

I can see just how it would work because I have a 5 year old bitch who came to me at almost 3 years old from a breeder - she hadn't worked out suitable for showing/breeding so I took her on as an obedience dog. Coming from kennels where she had little attention, little socialisation and no toys. She thinks I am the world and she will do anything for me. She's not distracted ever by other dogs, toy etc and is by far my best obedience dog - the easiest to teach and the fastest to learn. She thrives on praise from me.

Also - not as important, but with GSD specialty showing the dogs are supposed to respond to their owners, mine are always too busy looking at all the other dogs and trying to talk to the outside people, so to be their whole world, like the way I see other dogs reacting to their owners, would be handy in that situation too. I guess thats why my dogs have never lived up to the GSD breed standard of being aloof with strangers - they've been over socailised with them and have them as a high value thing.

K9, would you mind answering these questions please?

What happens if someone needs to handle one of your dogs short term, as in to go out the back for tests at the vets, family member feeds while your away for the night etc These people are 'nothings' to the dogs so they'd not be stressed about it or they would because their 'person' isn't there?

You say ( i think ) that your dogs will play with other dogs, on occasion, but they don't see it as being as fun as being with you - have I got that right? So if your dogs are in a group of other friendly dogs who are starting games, your dogs might play along? Perhaps not your dogs in particular, who have work to do, but say for the average pet dog who had been through this program?

Do your dogs ever tip their water buckets over and throw the bucket around for a game or dig through their beds for fun etc or do they truely look to you for everything?

Is there a page on your website or another website that outline how to actually do this program with a new puppy? I am possibly keeping a puppy from a litter that is due this week and would like to attempt this program with him/her.

Thanks

[Staranais]

Myzska: I have used it recently when I had a visiting puppy dobie girl that was of course bound to get raped by my dog. She didnt, dogs off leash and with help of ecollar I showed my dog that humping her is not what I want to see.

With the ecollar, is it right that you're using the ecollar as sort of an "anti-clicker"?

By that I mean, it's like a conditioned "punishment" marker to mark unwanted behaviour, instead of a conditioned "reward" marker like a clicker?

Just asking because I've felt low-stim ecollar, and it's not painful or even particularly uncomfortable. I don't see how that sensation would stop a dog who was intent on some hot dobe lovin', unless you'd already given the dog an association between the ecollar "buzz" and an unpleasant consequence?

(PS - Erny, is that your dog in your new avatar? She's pretty!)

[Erny]

PS - Erny, is that your dog in your new avatar? She's pretty!

Thanks Amhailte. Yes, that's her. I told you about that lady I met in the park who took her photo? That's one of the shots. And HR kindly fixed it so I was able to have it as my avatar.

Sorry for the hi-jack ....

[Steve K9Pro]

L:

that I asked on pg 15 (I think), I would really appreciate K9's responses to these questions.

K9: sorry, the thread was jumping a page at a time & I must have missed them...

L:

You've said the alpha is supposed to be the 'be all and end all'.

K9: supposed to is not the description I think accurate, more like ideal if the Alpha is very high in priority to the dog.

L:

How does isolating puppies from 'the pack' compare to pack life 'in the wild'? (As, obviously, 'in the wild', pups would be with the adult dogs and not by themselves.)

K9: There are probably many differences from the wild, but there will be anyway, domestic dogs need to accept leadership from a human rather than a dog, many of the behaviours a wild dog would do as normal would be totally unacceptble in a domestic application.

Having said that, wild dogs dont get socialised to any animal outside of the pack, so it's not so much different there.

L:

Where do your other dogs come into the pack structure?

K9: I believe every pack shuffles quite a bit, depending on the resource there at the time, I treat my dogs equal, the Alpha is not interested in petty squabbling in lower ranks, he wont tolerate it.

L:

You've said that you do not encourage dogs to 'think for themselves'

K9:no, I said that someone asked me if dogs raised in this manner offer new behaviours, & I said not ofetn & I dont care, if I want them doing something, I teach them.

That is different to problem solving, if I ask a dog to find an item for eg, the logistics of how to over come obsticles etc are chosen by the dog.

L:

What do you think of Mogens Eliasen's ideas?

K9: recondider the above answer & think of his ideas compared to mine now.

The basics you need to understand with this program is, it suggests that you only socialise to a zero value, not a positive one, all things you may encounter in your life, this makes training go easy, plus reduces risks that are very real in a young dogs life when trying to allow dogs to play etc.

It hasnt anything to do with stopping a dog from thinking. The dog cant think when he is nuts for another dog.

L:

I am not sure whether your adult dogs are allowed to interact with one another when they're not home - do you worry that, having not had lots of experience with other dogs,

K9: they run together 100% of the time now. They have tons of experience with other dogs, they just never were taught that another dog is the most fun thing in the planet.

L:

Or do they simply not pay enough attention to one another for this to be a consideration/concern of yours?

K9: they at times still do play with eachother, here is an example for you..

I walk outside the dogs are playing wither eachother, doing what ever, I am on the scene now & that is much more interesting than playing with the other.

L:

I have heard, suggested in the past, that if a dog lays at a door that you've closed or something similar he is rebelling against your alpha-ism

K9: I think anyone that generalsises a behaviour to one reasonshould be questioned.

L:

Do your dogs do this in their desire to be with you?

K9: where ever I sit, each dog lays down on either side of me, generally. No commands, thats just where they want to be.

L:

Is it possible for dogs to perhaps 'pretend' to not be fixated on you, as so they may return their attention to you and be praised? (e.g. dog sees bird, dog runs up to birds, turns around and comes back to you - just to get your praise)

K9: not pretend, but have less interest in the bird, yes, run back to get praise yes, learned experience yes.

CM:

One thing I really don't like about it is having my dogs give me 100% attention in the backyard.

K9: its not like that either, lol, but can you say that when you walk out the back yard, your dogs dont even acknowledge you there?

CM:

I just want to hang out with them, no pressure, no distractions, and not all over me.

K9: no no... this doesnt create that either...

Your over analysing.

I showed someone recently how one of my bitches is with me, I let her out in the training room, she walked in next to me, then went over to sniff the other person.

The person & I began to talk & my bitch took that as a cue to give us some space so she lays down to one side, no commands.

I was talking & sitting down, I look at my bitch & pause in my discussion, dog runs to me & sits, receives attanetion. I stop patting her & give no command but restart discussion, she goes & lays down again.

She does not pester the other person for attention, she doesnt wander off, she doesnt push me for attention, nor does she shy away from the person or over investigate them, their bag or anything else.

CM:

if I was using this program I would have to do something with them every single time I went out

K9: thats not written here, as its not part of the program, you dont need to do that at all.

CM:

I don't think I could live with my dogs watching and waiting for me 100% of the time,

K9: only a dog with issues or completely stupid would sit there wishing you were home, when your not outside or when your not home, they are fully aware that there will be no play, no food etc, so dont pine for it.

CM:

I gather no "down time" in your presence with this program?

K9: course there is, lol, it doesnt create a clingy dog at all..

CM:

I have 3 dogs and cannot separate them without it taking double the time

K9: this means they are too doggy. I cant open my gate & go play with one next door & the other watch on.

CM:

but even if I was to start this now, I would be going backwards everytime I walked out the backyard to do something not involving them, yes?

K9: no, but having said that, you cant go backwards.

CM:

Plus, they spend all day with each other ... ain't no getting around that!

K9: so do mine NOW, as they are mature, but getting around it would be penning.

I:

She thinks I am the world and she will do anything for me. She's not distracted ever by other dogs, toy etc and is by far my best obedience dog - the easiest to teach and the fastest to learn. She thrives on praise from me.

K9: this dog probably see's you as the true Alpha & goes into pack drive when interacting with you, this is how it is supposed to be.

Positive socialisation programs destroy that.

I:

What happens if someone needs to handle one of your dogs short term,

K9'": handling is no problem, although its not as good as with me as there is no pack drive.

I:

as in to go out the back for tests at the vets,

K9: from here its best to go to clients dogs for examples, I wouldnt have anyone take my dogs away from me, with some of the training they have had, it would be like loaning one of my hand guns to a novice.

A mistake at the vet such as the dog missunderstanding the vets intentions may see the vet get hurt.

Other peoples dogs however could have this done, had they not had extensive bite work.

I still would feel that the Alpha should take the dog to a vet for other reasons.

I:

family member feeds while your away for the night etc These people are 'nothings' to the dogs so they'd not be stressed about it or they would because their 'person' isn't there?

K9: boarding is no issue, feeding is done via the TOT, but people coming through my gate are not seen as nothing, they are seen as a threat & would be dealt with accordingly.

I:

You say ( i think ) that your dogs will play with other dogs, on occasion, but they don't see it as being as fun as being with you - have I got that right? So if your dogs are in a group of other friendly dogs who are starting games, your dogs might play along?

K9: rarely, but they may, from past experience, they wander off hunting. The dogs follow them.

I:

Perhaps not your dogs in particular, who have work to do, but say for the average pet dog who had been through this program?

K9: most all do the same, or pick up sticks to trigger the handler to play.

I:

Do your dogs ever tip their water buckets over and throw the bucket around for a game or dig through their beds for fun etc or do they truely look to you for everything?

K9: they dont do any of those things, for fun they chew sticks they find, or harass the neighbours, lol..

I:

Is there a page on your website or another website that outline how to actually do this program with a new puppy? I am possibly keeping a puppy from a litter that is due this week and would like to attempt this program with him/her.

K9: there isnt, but one day there may be, its a long detailed topic.

[Eldoop]

Gee I needed a lunch break reading K9's post it is so long ;) sorry K9 just having a joke

[Sardog]

A question for K9...

What do you think of the theory that a male dog sees the male handler as the leader but a female handler of a male dog only as an equal?

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

With the ecollar, is it right that you're using the ecollar as sort of an "anti-clicker"?

By that I mean, it's like a conditioned "punishment" marker to mark unwanted behaviour, instead of a conditioned "reward" marker like a clicker?

K9: no, the way I use it is to communicate with the dog, its like a tap on the shoulder, technically called a behavioural interuptor.

A:

I don't see how that sensation would stop a dog who was intent on some hot dobe lovin', unless you'd already given the dog an association between the ecollar "buzz" and an unpleasant consequence?

K9: through training the dog knows that each time a stim is felt, its followed by a command, this takes the dogs mind off the other & makes it easier to comply.

It wouldnt work with the initial training & imprinting, which btw doesnt take long.

[Steve K9Pro]

S:

What do you think of the theory that a male dog sees the male handler as the leader but a female handler of a male dog only as an equal?

K9: I dont believe in it, though I have heard of it.

I have some awesome female / bitch clients. Its up to you to guess which one is the bitch lol.

I also feel, flame suit on, that women make better trainers than men, they are better at multi tasking.

Watch mum speaking to her friend in the shopping mall, she holds conv with friend whilst watching three kids, correcting one of them & changing the other nappy.

Dad however gets into the discussion & the kids are swinging off the roof...

I truly believe that less than 10% of dog owners are actually the Alpha..

[Sardog]

Thanks K9,

Now I know where I stand at your seminar on 19th & 20th....lololol.

[Purple Julie]

YB:

Ok so if a dog has put a high value on something then to overcome that we need to find somehitng of higher value to keep the dogs focus on us and not the environment

K9: Ideally, you set the values in S&N you & your items being the highest.

When your dog has a high value on something, it will need corrections or a lot of training to re assign that value.

Ok, so say you have a water loving dog that just wants to go swimming at the sight of water and say you want to reduce the value of water. Do you give the dog a correction for heading over to the water/getting into the water? My thought is that over time, the dog would get a negative value on water rather than a neutral value if he keeps on getting corrections near water. Do you teach the dog that it's only allowed to go into the water when you give a release command? Though doing that only increases obedience, not necessarily reduce value, right?

[MonElite]

Just asking because I've felt low-stim ecollar, and it's not painful or even particularly uncomfortable. I don't see how that sensation would stop a dog who was intent on some hot dobe lovin', unless you'd already given the dog an association between the ecollar "buzz" and an unpleasant consequence?

Anti clicker? I have no idea Am I do what K9 told me to do and it works, thats all I care about. Rex is affraid of a clicker so I never used it.

As to dobie loving and punishment.

Ok the dog has been tought a recall (with the ecollar) and has it pretty much under control under high level of distraction such as a dobie girl willing to play.

So off he went and if he played nice, run with her and didnt anoy her he could be there with her. The moment he started being too "happy" I called him to me meaning the play ended for him. I made him heal nicely next to me and for obeying that I released him to go and play with the girl. Nice play no worries, something I dont like = come or sit (which he does very well at the distance)

So I guess that it isnt the unpleasant sensation that made him stop the dobie lovin' its the recall that worked and the lack of play was a punishment for being to hot.

Gee I hope that this is right.... otherwise K9 will put me in the corner for being a bad student ;)

****

As to handling K9's dogs I had an opportunity to walk the male some time ago as a practice for some dog agression for another dog. I went to untie him from where he was, took the leash and said heal, just like I would do with any other dog. He walked nicely next to me, when standing still he let me pet him. When I stoped he didnt ask for more. Heal again, walked next to me nicely again. The moment K9 raised a stick the dog was in a different world of which I wasnt a part of.

Priceless to observe.

[hopenfox]

Erny;

If you're going to neutralise your dog, it needs to start from a puppy

So does that mean it would'nt be possible to neutralise an adult dog?

[Steve K9Pro]

S:

Now I know where I stand at your seminar on 19th & 20th....lololol.

K9: huh? can you explain?

PJ:

Ok, so say you have a water loving dog that just wants to go swimming at the sight of water and say you want to reduce the value of water.

K9: you obedience train the dog to comply with your commands through whatever method works for you, dont try & de value something, you will usually fail or over do it.

PJ:

Do you teach the dog that it's only allowed to go into the water when you give a release command? Though doing that only increases obedience, not necessarily reduce value, right?

K9": thats correct, see your getting it...

So does that mean it would'nt be possible to neutralise an adult dog?

K9: thats correct, the boat has sailed...

M:

The moment K9 raised a stick the dog was in a different world of which I wasnt a part of.

Priceless to observe.

K9: remembering too that he was being stalked by an 80 plus kg dog aggressive dog that had made several aggression attempts on him...

Good nerves & this program make for a very stable dog.

[Staranais]

It wouldnt work with the initial training & imprinting, which btw doesnt take long.

OK, thanks K9 and Myszka - I guess that answered my question.

I was just wondering why a dog would choose to pay attention to a stim that was merely annoying, when there were interesting things to play with (like lady dogs). I was thinking that most dogs would just block out the low stim, and keep doing what they were doing.

But I understand now that the dog has had some kind of prior imprinting training with the collar, so doesn't react like a "normal" untrained dog would.

;)

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

I was just wondering why a dog would choose to pay attention to a stim that was merely annoying, when there were interesting things to play with (like lady dogs). I was thinking that most dogs would just block out the low stim, and keep doing what they were doing.

K9: the key is that the dog never discovers that it can escape or turn off the stim any other way but compliance, hence the long line.

[Staranais]

OK, thanks.