Socialisation & Neutralisation

[haven]

I didn't think it was an anxiety thing, they are always so very relaxed :rolleyes:

Don't worry Rusky, when I said it was an anxiety thing, I meant specifically for my dog as he has anxiety issues and feels safer when near me.

[Leema]

yogibear:

i prefer to set things up so i get what i want and its easy for the dog to understand

I've read a book by Diane Bauman (Beyond Basic Obedience, I think is its title) and she doesn't like 'setting her dog up' to always get things right, and she believes that dogs that learn to 'think on their feet' initially are the best at then 'thinking on their feet' when the situations are unusual.

However, of course, K9's neutralisation system (as I understanding) makes everything so unappealing that this would not be a consideration.

seems your link leema is just an add for an e book not much actual explanation there seeings it sounds like you have read the book

I haven't read the book - have considered buying it but is very expensive. However, I've had some contact with the author but don't feel like have indepth knowledge - enough to explain it all, that is.

The 'lying at the door thing', as explained to me as being the dog saying "I don't want the door to be here. I want to go through the door." In saying this, the dog is not respecting you as alpha as it is trying to 'undermine' the strategies your implement - which is the door.

In other words, the dog is saying that the restrictions that you implement (that is, the door) doesn't matter to the dog.

I hope that made sense.

I don't know if I actually agree with this or not - but it's what I have heard, and I was wondering if K9 agrees with this or not - and whyso.

Erny:

Therefore, I doubt that a "neutralisation" program such as K9 describes would be necessary in the wild. Hence, it would IMO be inappropriate to draw comparison between pups in a wild dog pack to those required to live in our domesticated environments.

Neutralisation is a programmatic method that can be used to chanel and mould a dog's instinctive behaviour and goals into a behaviour more suitable for domestic life situations.

That is a very good explaination, Erny. I understand completely. Thank-you!

[Lablover]

Continuing on with dogs bred to work independantly & think for themselves- would it remove the dog's ability to work on it's own? Would it constanly be relying on instruction and guidance from it's owner?

Just re-asking this question because it seems to ahve gotten missed and I'm very curious.

No.

A well trained dog may look like a robot, except of course they look as if they are having a wonderful time, wagging tail, thrembling, salivating and keen eye focus.

In retrieving trials they are expected and do hunt on their own, mostly out of sight of the handler.

A good question all the same!!!!! and one that is particularly relevant in all aspects of training.

[haven]

The 'lying at the door thing', as explained to me as being the dog saying "I don't want the door to be here. I want to go through the door." In saying this, the dog is not respecting you as alpha as it is trying to 'undermine' the strategies your implement - which is the door.

In other words, the dog is saying that the restrictions that you implement (that is, the door) doesn't matter to the dog.

To me this implies that dogs have the capacity for deductive reasoning and a whole range of other unlikely emotions and intentions. Sounds like anthropomorphic rubbish.

ETA: I agree that the dog probably does not want the door to be there, as they prefer not to be seperated from the pack, but I can't agree with the interpretation of why.

Edited November 5, 2005 by haven

[Lablover]

My dogs sleep with us from time to time, are allowed on the funiture, and are spoilt terribly.

I do not think it negates anything I want them to do.

Just joining the conversation. If dogs are like wolves, are we like apes? This line always springs into the grey matter that remains in my head.

[haven]

Just joining the conversation. If dogs are like wolves, are we like apes? This line always springs into the grey matter that remains in my head.

I have heard this more than once, but personally I don't think it is a correct analogy. Dogs evolved directly from wolves, humans did not evolve from apes, we share a common ancestor, it's not the same thing.

[Lablover]

I agree. I was reading an article on wolves last night, and certainly it made sense. Should I type the relevant paragraph? I found it very thought provoking. Not really relevant to the topic, but rather, wolves co-existing together with each other and the human relationship.

[haven]

Sure, if you want to I'd like to read it

[Lablover]

Its huge, so I have taken the liberty of trimming it down in my own words.

The author, a wolf expert, had a particularly wild wolf which he was researching. It had obviously had very poor, inadequate education and it had learnt that force like hitting, striking or biting was its only form of defence.

One day the wolf bit the author, causing significant wounds.

What he did then was for the next 3 or 4 days was go into the enclosure on all fours while holding his forearm off the ground mimicking a limp, constantly licking and feigning injury. These actions were designed to indicate to the wolf that it had injured him in such a way as that he was no longer able to obtain a food source.

About a week and a half later, which is not too long for a wolf to be without food, he began to put weight on the arm and behave normally. He then went away and returned with food and shared it with the wolf.

From that day forward his relationship with the wolf was completely different,. The wolf had learnt a valuable lesson that would have been well respected in the wild, to injure a pack member to the point that they could no longer contribute effectively to the packs survival was extremely counter productive.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Lablover

[Erny]

Erny:

Therefore, I doubt that a "neutralisation" program such as K9 describes would be necessary in the wild. Hence, it would IMO be inappropriate to draw comparison between pups in a wild dog pack to those required to live in our domesticated environments.

Neutralisation is a programmatic method that can be used to chanel and mould a dog's instinctive behaviour and goals into a behaviour more suitable for domestic life situations.

That is a very good explaination, Erny. I understand completely. Thank-you!

Thank you Leema .... it's from my own perspective of the given situations, and that's the way I would see it, but I don't know if anyone with more expertise would have a different view.

[haven]

Interesting, but it raises a lot of questions for me, which may or may not have been answered elsewhere in the article. Was the wolf raised with people from a pup? Or was it obtained as an adult?

Does it say exactly how the relationship changed, or does it just say it was different?

Who was the author?

[Lablover]

Wild as far I remember from the first two articles.

The article was written by Felix Ho and Shaun Ellis of Wolfpack Management Co.

The three series are from the Australasian Working Dog Magazine, BTW.

[Rusky]

The 'lying at the door thing', as explained to me as being the dog saying "I don't want the door to be here. I want to go through the door." In saying this, the dog is not respecting you as alpha as it is trying to 'undermine' the strategies your implement - which is the door. 

In other words, the dog is saying that the restrictions that you implement (that is, the door) doesn't matter to the dog.

I hope that made sense.

Hi Leema

obviously I have not read what you have read but generally a dog impeding the way of you, the owner, handler whatever is as I understand it the dog not knowing who is boss. My dogs do not barr the way, they wait, always giving me space, they never impede my passage.

I am not sure if this is what you mean, waiting or positoning themselves to barr your way?

[SpikesPuppy]

Continuing on with dogs bred to work independantly & think for themselves- would it remove the dog's ability to work on it's own? Would it constanly be relying on instruction and guidance from it's owner?

Just re-asking this question because it seems to ahve gotten missed and I'm very curious.

No.

A well trained dog may look like a robot, except of course they look as if they are having a wonderful time, wagging tail, thrembling, salivating and keen eye focus.

In retrieving trials they are expected and do hunt on their own, mostly out of sight of the handler.

A good question all the same!!!!! and one that is particularly relevant in all aspects of training.

Ta for that

I only asked because my 3 favourite breeds (Newfoundland, Border Terrier & Norwegian Lundehund) are all dogs required at some time in their 'job' to think for themselves and make their own decisions (I'm sure it's not decision making in the same way as humans do it but I'm sure you know what I mean!). These dog's ability relies on their ability to think and problem solve.

Whilst, as I've said, I like to see my dogs do 'doggy things' (yes even digging up the garden!), I DO see value in this training method and I would consider imposing it on a pup in the future, and I find this a most interesting topic to read and ponder.

To add to the lying in front of a door topic- my Newfoundland lies infront of a closed door, when he is in the same room as me (which he always is, joined at the hip we are lol), but I see this more as a protection thing? As he will move from the door if I say "Move yer ass" (which is my command for move and it's said in a light tone lol), and he will allow me to open it and will follow me through- NOT barge in front of me.

Is this him protecting me, habit, or him confused as to who's Alpha?

[Purple Julie]

Just another thing, you know how Jyra sometimes reacts to dogs and sometimes doesn't (this is in a non-prey drive setting), Do you think that has A LOT to do with the other dog, and how it reacts to her? I think so.

This doesn't happen all the time though Julie.

Look at two of the time she went for Reilly. One time he was not paying attention to her in the least and wasn't even facing her. The time after that he was also not facing her or even near her. And both times she was not hyped up at the time (in fact she was resting the second time).

I noticed she also reacted to any movement the little dogs were making while in the room.

What behaviour of Reilly for eg, would make Jyra react during those times?

Nat

Nat, I said 'sometimes' twice in the quote you quoted, not 'all the time'.

To answer your question, Jyra doesn't really like Reilly since he got the glint in his eye of wanting to hump her at the lure coursing. At the beginning of the day at herding, when she met Reilly, she walked away from him (avoidance). I think the times that you referred to, Jyra was relaxed and in a vulnerable position, and I believe Reilly moved, stood up one time and Jyra reacted to these movements.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Purple Julie

[Purple Julie]

This is a really morphed thread with a dozen different topics going all at the one time, boy!!

Anyway, I'm going back to the neutralisation stuff here. After having more time thinking about it, I have more questions for K9.

How do you neutralise the dog to people, and which people do you neutralise him to? Is it everyone except you? Or is the dog allowed to have a positive value on the other humans who live in the house with him? I think it would be hard to neutralise your dog to people, as a lot of people see a puppy and want to pat it and play with it. What do you do when socialising your pup in public and people go up to pat him? What do you do when friends and family come over and want to play with him? Do you just lay down a strict line and tell them 'no, I don't want you playing with my dog?'

I can see the value of having your dog with a neutral value to people. Not all visitors want an exuberant people loving dog pestering them for attention when they come to see you.

Jyra loves people, so she's not neutralised for sure!

Another thing, what are your dogs not neutralised to? You, I know, they have a high positive value for you, but are you really the ONLY thing they have a high positive value for? You train your dogs in prey drive, so don't your dogs have a high value for their favourite prey item that you train them with? And what about water (as in swimming water) and food, don't your dogs have a positive value for them? They eat, so they must like food, thus it mustn't have a neutral value...correct reasoning? Your dogs like to go for a swim don't they? Then doesn't swimming/water have a positive value too?

And if the answer is no, they have a neutral value, how do you teach them not to value swimming and eating?

Jyra loves swimming, too. She loves a lot of things, actually!

[Guest Tess32]

Nat, I wasn't talking about these occasions, as I was relating it to switching in and out of drive and asking a question about that.

To answer your question, Jyra doesn't really like Reilly since he got the glint in his eye of wanting to hump her at the lure coursing. At the beginning of the day at herding, when she met Reilly, she walked away from him (avoidance). I think the times that you referred to, Jyra was relaxed and in a vulnerable position, and I believe Reilly moved, stood up one time and Jyra reacted to these movements.

I don't think Jyra can read minds Julie I also noticed she reacted to movements to most of the other dogs as well.

Either way, I do hope you end up learning her boundaries and limits and what sets her off.

Nat

[Leema]

Okay, here is the actual article that I got the dog door thing from (as an action for establishing/maintaining pack leadership):

A closed door effectively restricts the access to other parts of the house, but should any of your dogs take to 'sleeping' in front of doorways it should be actively discouraged by removing the dog from that spot with a firm command of "move!". Do not step over the dog which is constantly in your way - take the shortest route to your destination and move the dog.

http://www.phouka.com/dogs/dog_pack.html (Author: Katie Rourke)

In regard to the dog/wolf 'house raised'/'wild raised' interest, I recall reading this scientific study with interest: www.eva.mpg.de/psycho/pdf/domestication_in_dogs.pdf

The abstract of this document is below:

Dogs are more skillful than great apes at a number of tasks in which they must read human communicative signals indicating the location of hidden food. In this study, we found that wolves who were raised by humans do not show these same skills, whereas domestic dog puppies only a few weeks old, even those that have had little human contact, do show these skills. These findings suggest that during the process of domesticiation, dogs have been selected for a set of social-cognitive abilities that enable them to communicate with humans in unique ways.

(Any errors in this quote are my doing, as I'm typing from the article rather than copying and pasting from the PDF file.)

Just thought this might be interesting - though off topic.

[Kavik]

After having walked the dogs yesterday for the first time since I got back, and having had some sleep, I had a think about this.

I can see how neutralisation would make training easier as there are less temptations/distractions.

But I have to put my hand up as being one of those people who really enjoys it and gets a lot of pleasure out of being social with my dog. I really enjoy meeting people and dogs (not dogs with Zoe though!) on walks, people enjoy meeting and patting the dogs, and we talk. And with Diesel the dogs get to sniff and say hi. I find this one of my favourite parts of owning a dog.

Zoe is more attached to me than Diesel is - will ignore people and distractions and focus on me more and will not work for other peoplw well if prevented by a lead to get to me. That I think is more individual personality plus she is older and I have worked with her more.

And with Purple Julie, unless you strictly control the people your dog interacts with, I think it would be very difficult to neutralise your pup to people, as most people want to say hi and visit puppies even if they don't with adult dogs. And it is hard enough to find dogs that can give your pup a positive experience, it would be very difficult to find one that would help your pup to see dogs as neutral.

[NaturallyWild]

Excellent topic. Discussed this with my GF on what type of dog she would prefer - one wih neutral associations with most things (mainly dogs/people) and main focus on us or a dog that is eager to have a romp with other dogs. She chose the dog who wanted to play. I suppose i would enjoy the same thing but i realise it generally means more work in training to get the extra control from these distractions. She made an interesting point of what happens if the owner of a dog that is neutral to all things but them dies or permanently incapacitated. How difficult is it for that dog to recover with the loss compared to a dog that has regular positive associations with other dogs and people. Also agree that it would be very hard to find neutral dogs to be able to work along with but i'm sure if we searched hard enough we would find them.