yogibear Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I cant answer for k9 but i do know this from experience and watching other peoples dogs that are trained using free shaping Letting a dog try to figure out what we want can be very stressful i have seen dogs get really worked up and stressed when trying to work out what their trianer wants from them i prefer to set things up so i get what i want and its easy for the dog to understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 seems your link leema is just an add for an e book not much actual explanation there seeings it sounds like you have read the book how about expanding n the four areas of the brain and how we can tap into them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I have heard, suggested in the past, that if a dog lays at a door that you've closed or something similar he is rebelling against your alpha-ism Woot? Maybe it's my ignorance, but I always considered it to be more the other way around. When I'm in my room and the door is closed, 9 times out of 10 Loki lies as close to the door as he can get. I can assure you he is not rebelling against my alpha status! I considered it to be more an anxiety or pack thing, trying to be as close to me as he physically can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I considered it to be more an anxiety or pack thing, trying to be as close to me as he physically can. yes I am sure you are correct, as soon as I open the door and start to walk the dog/dogs follow. If they are occupied and not lying by the door say when outside then as soon as they scent or hear me they run to me. I always thought this was because I am the boss but am interested in other theories. I didn't think it was an anxiety thing, they are always so very relaxed :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I cant answer for k9 but i do know this from experience and watching other peoples dogs that are trained using free shaping Letting a dog try to figure out what we want can be very stressful i have seen dogs get really worked up and stressed when trying to work out what their trianer wants from them i prefer to set things up so i get what i want and its easy for the dog to understand Isn't it the same for any training method? Choose what is right for the dog and handler? My bitch gets very stressed out with any physical luring, but other dogs wouldn't even bat an eyelash over it. I don't really freeshape because it sounds like chaos for someone who prefers to be organised, but I do have Reilly do some problem solving and he hardly has a nervous breakdown over it. I'd never have my bitch problem solve because she prefers to be told what to do. Some dogs are sensitive towards physical luring, some to freeshaping, some to correction collars, some to headcollars etc - it doesn't make freeshaping any "worse" than any other method. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) How does isolating puppies from 'the pack' compare to pack life 'in the wild'? (As, obviously, 'in the wild', pups would be with the adult dogs and not by themselves.) If I may attempt a suitable answer :- Many unwanted behaviours exhibited by dogs are actually "normal" in the wild and, in the wild, would not be seen as a "problem behaviour". Most problem behaviours exhibited these days are only "problems" due to our own domestic requirements and social standards. Therefore, I doubt that a "neutralisation" program such as K9 describes would be necessary in the wild. Hence, it would IMO be inappropriate to draw comparison between pups in a wild dog pack to those required to live in our domesticated environments. Neutralisation is a programmatic method that can be used to chanel and mould a dog's instinctive behaviour and goals into a behaviour more suitable for domestic life situations. Edited because I think this wording is a bit clearer than my first attempt. I hope so! Edited November 4, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Julie Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Ok, I've caught up with all the lastest posts in this thread, and I must say, Leena, you asked some very good, thought out questions. Now my thoughts/questions: K9, you have said that the dogs that your dog that is in neutralisation training encounters are dogs that will ignore your dog (sorry about the grammar!). Right, so, you have dogs that YOU can find that will do this. But what about the rest of us, say we were doing neutralisation, where would we find the dogs that will ignore our dog, seeing as a lot of dogs want to interact with other dogs? Have I understood this right - what you do is, when your dog is 8-12 weeks, take him out and expose him to all sorts of experiences...Question: What do you do if your dog shows a positive or negative reaction to these things, and how do you make it a neutral reaction? Another Question: Do you completely avoid all other dogs in this phase?...Then for 12-? weeks, you keep the dog at home and don't expose it to much (whilst probably developing prey drive, I assume!)...Then after this period ends, which is when? What happens next? You do more neutralisation socialisation whilst avoiding other dogs until the dog is about 12 months, and then you introduce him to other dogs that have no interest in dogs. Question: What do you do if your dog does show interest in these dogs? Nothing because it'll soon realise that they're not exciting? (Deary me, I'm answering my own questions!) I think that's all for now. I think Jyra has a high positive value for people, and I'm not certain on her value for other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Julie Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Just another thing, you know how Jyra sometimes reacts to dogs and sometimes doesn't (this is in a non-prey drive setting), Do you think that has A LOT to do with the other dog, and how it reacts to her? I think so. Again, another silly question from me that I am answering! If the other dog has a neutral value to Jyra, say and doesn't do much, Jyra is less likely to react to it. However, if the other dog reacts to Jyra in some manner (positive or negative), Jyra is likely to react back to it. Do you think that is a correct reading of the behaviour or am I way off track? (Off topic that I have to post somewhere: It would be interesting to see what you could do with Jyra and Imashephead's GSD Chilli (whom you read about in her post) together at the workshop. They would both be likely to react to each other, so it's probably not a good idea really, but just wondering if you could work such great wonders that they wouldn't react to each other!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Just another thing, you know how Jyra sometimes reacts to dogs and sometimes doesn't (this is in a non-prey drive setting), Do you think that has A LOT to do with the other dog, and how it reacts to her? I think so. This doesn't happen all the time though Julie. Look at two of the time she went for Reilly. One time he was not paying attention to her in the least and wasn't even facing her. The time after that he was also not facing her or even near her. And both times she was not hyped up at the time (in fact she was resting the second time). I noticed she also reacted to any movement the little dogs were making while in the room. What behaviour of Reilly for eg, would make Jyra react during those times? Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Look at two of the time she went for Reilly. One time he was not paying attention to her in the least and wasn't even facing her. She was most likely in avoidance and didnt want to see the other dog.  The time after that he was also not facing her or even near her. What behaviour of Reilly for eg, would make react during those times? Proximity - too close for Jyras comfort. Possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Look at two of the time she went for Reilly.  One time he was not paying attention to her in the least and wasn't even facing her. She was most likely in avoidance and didnt want to see the other dog.  The time after that he was also not facing her or even near her. What behaviour of Reilly for eg, would make react during those times?  Proximity - too close for Jyras comfort. Possibly. I think you dress it up and the dog has an aggression problem and needs some help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 What a great thread to meet me when I returned from the USA! I hadn't even thought about the difference between neutralisation and socialisation! I guess I always assumed that you would want a positive association with everything! That could account for my problem with Diesel with especially the stand for exam - he wants to play with the examiner! K9 - what is your opinion on clicker training? Seeing as most clicker trainers use free shaping? It seems to be almost the opposite of how you train. I have done a bit of both - clicker and prey. Probably explains a lot of the problems I am having - probably should make up my mind. With sidoney's help I have used clicker training successfully with Zoe to teach her a trick I thought I wouldn't be able to teach her due to her focus on my hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Look at two of the time she went for Reilly. One time he was not paying attention to her in the least and wasn't even facing her. She was most likely in avoidance and didnt want to see the other dog.  The time after that he was also not facing her or even near her. What behaviour of Reilly for eg, would make react during those times? Proximity - too close for Jyras comfort. Possibly. The second time, she was on the opposite side of the room and has ignored dogs (and Reilly) closer to her, so I find it interesting she doesn't appear to have a consistent comfort circle. How do people go about tackling the issue when the dog doesn't appear to be predictable in this way? I don't know much about avoidance, if a dog is in avoidance, why would they make the full effort to come over and grab a dog who wasn't even interacting with them? Sorry for the hijack Julie, but I would like to know how far to keep my own dog away from dogs with similar behavioural issues. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Seeing as most clicker trainers use free shaping? I haven't found that actually - going by the few clicker lists I'm on, it seems that the majority of people use non physical luring and clicker, and most don't appear to free shape the majority of behaviours. The trainers on the lists only seem to use free shaping with experienced dogs as it just confuses new dogs and new handlers. Don't most people use a verbal marker anyway? I think that's a great point someone made about some people forgetting about the need to praise/talk to their dog and just thinking the clicker will do everything. Though same thing can happen with a lot of tools I guess. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 The second time, she was on the opposite side of the room and has ignored dogs (and Reilly) closer to her, so I find it interesting she doesn't appear to have a consistent comfort circle. How do people go about tackling the issue when the dog doesn't appear to be predictable in this way? I don't know much about avoidance, if a dog is in avoidance, why would they make the full effort to come over and grab a dog who wasn't even interacting with them? Sorry for the hijack Julie, but I would like to know how far to keep my own dog away from dogs with similar behavioural issues. Nat Those that attended one of the worshops with Steve whee we had lost of dobes will know what Im talking about. We had my dog and a brown dobe (also an entire male). Rex for some reason decided to have a go at the dog, from a distance that I have always considered safe. I attend the trainig club with that dobe, last weekend we were starding not more tahn 1m apart with no reaction from my dog. So the simple answer is that the distance can change, depending on the day, circumstances etc. Why would the dog make an effort to grab another dog? Becouse it thinks that the flight option is removed, becouse of previous experiences and learned behaviours, becouse it thinks that having a go at another dog will scare it off and it will go away. Simply becouse it wants to protect itself, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 So how do you cope with being near other dogs if you can't tell in advance how far/close you can be without a reaction? Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 So how do you cope with being near other dogs if you can't tell in advance how far/close you can be without a reaction? Nat You observe the dog (heaps of signs before the dog even hackles up) and do not go any closer. Quite simple really if you know what you are doing. Just to bring this to line of the actual subject - that would not be the case if a dog seen no value (positive or negative) in other dogs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 So how do you cope These days really easy, but I used to stress out heaps. :rolleyes: Just ask anyone here that knows me and my dog. Heaps of people seen me at K9's workshops, some people here I know privatelly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 I haven't found that actually - going by the few clicker lists I'm on, it seems that the majority of people use non physical luring and clicker, and most don't appear to free shape the majority of behaviours.The trainers on the lists only seem to use free shaping with experienced dogs as it just confuses new dogs and new handlers. IMO a lot of people who use clickers don't understand how to use them properly. Eg., low success rate hence setting up stress, and too much luring, which doesn't actually teach the dog much except to follow the lure. As well as disconnecting from the dog, and other things mentioned here. If I am teaching a new dog with a clicker one of the FIRST things I'll do is free shape a behaviour (target an object, usually), with a high rate of reward, in order to get the dog operant. That is, what it does can make the click happen. From the little I know about ecollar training, observed at Steve's, if I have not got this wrong, this seems to be similar to the early stages of that - set the dog up so that it learns it can turn the collar off by what it does. Obviously I need to know more about this. Anyway, this is not what this thread is about, so I'll leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Continuing on with dogs bred to work independantly & think for themselves- would it remove the dog's ability to work on it's own? Would it constanly be relying on instruction and guidance from it's owner? Just re-asking this question because it seems to ahve gotten missed and I'm very curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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