slim1 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9 K9: there is no command, dog walks down the street, other dog coming other way, dog will walk by with maybe a 1 second glance... Boofhead does that when out riding a bike. Would that mean that he sees the bike as prey statisfaction or he's neutralised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 S: Boofhead does that when out riding a bike. Would that mean that he sees the bike as prey statisfaction or he's neutralised. K9: maybe he is concentrating hard on riding the bike? lol.. Probably means that he has no time to focus on a dog in the small amount of time he has to keep up with the bike. The bike will not give him prey drive satisfaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 E: And it makes me ponder about how to manage the program with a dog who is genetically engineered to "sniff" and gets his buzz out of that ... eg. Beagle. K9: Beagles arent designed to sniff other dogs.. lol.. you dont remove the sniff desire, but reward it with things yopu have the dog sniff... Thank you for the responses, K9 ... although in essence neutralisation seems to be a fairly simple concept, they cleared up a number of foggy areas for me. As for my comment using a Beagle as an example, I was thinking about the Beagles' natural fettish in following a scent on the ground, which often seems to become the more valued activity over that of the company of the owner. I acknowledge that there is often recall training fault involved, but am I stretching my imagination too far to suggest that neutralisation to the activity of scenting could be possible, given that we can hardly control the power of the scent? I feel I may be bordering on the ridiculous, here ... sorry - just exploratory thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim1 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9 Probably means that he has no time to focus on a dog in the small amount of time he has to keep up with the bike Its me normally trying to keep up with him lol... Ok this may sound like a dumb question .... If he gets no prey satisfaction from riding yet just loves to do it and can ignore whats happening around him... what is it then? (and its not trying to keep up with me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 E: Thank you for the responses, K9 ... although in essence neutralisation seems to be a fairly simple concept, they cleared up a number of foggy areas for me. K9:its very simple, instead of rewarding your dog for playing & being nice you reward it for ignoring & coming back. You need to think in tersm of numbers, if your dogs shys away, from a person, that person may give food etc, to raise the association from negative to zero.. but am I stretching my imagination too far to suggest that neutralisation to the activity of scenting could be possible, given that we can hardly control the power of the scent? K9: you certainly wouldnt need to Neutralise a dog to scent that you want to track, but its not the scent the dogs love so much, its the satisfaction of the find... You can easily control that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9 : oh & I started a drive thread, as Lablover was trembling, lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 S: If he gets no prey satisfaction from riding yet just loves to do it and can ignore whats happening around him... what is it then? (and its not trying to keep up with me) K9: dogs dont do everything in drive, he may just enjoy the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim1 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Ok have asked my question in the other thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 So when we are talking neutralisation we need to think in tearms of reward for ignoring the surroundings ok so if the dog is totally focussed on something and we cant get there focus back to us what do i do wait tit out jump up and down until the dog realises i exist or hit myself on the head for putting the dog into a situation he wasnt ready for yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 If the dog is getting no reforcement from the surroundings, then why would he ignore you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 YB: So when we are talking neutralisation we need to think in tearms of reward for ignoring the surroundings ok so if the dog is totally focussed on something and we cant get there focus back to us what do i do wait tit out jump up and down until the dog realises i exist or hit myself on the head for putting the dog into a situation he wasnt ready for K9: the best trainer in the world sets up everything, he or she is active, not reactive. If you found yourself in thats situation I would correct the dog away & reward for leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 A: If the dog is getting no reforcement from the surroundings, then why would he ignore you? K9: in reality he wont, but if he was, there is something a miss with the relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 (edited) YB - If I might hesitantly offer an unqualified answer, IMO I don't think the dog has "neutralised" if you have to make such an effort to re-gain the dog's attention. But I think your question was the same as what I asked earlier. K9's answer was that neutralisation to that distracting stimulus would then not occur, as it now has a 'value'. However, for the purposes of training, either pick up the leash to get the dog over to you and reward for coming, or if appropriate for the moment, ignore and reward the dog when it looks away from the stimuli and back over to you. Hope I accurately reiterated your responses, K9. Edited November 4, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Yup ok so you have gotten the dog away from the distraction and move on unfortunately you cant always set up the environment in a perfect way as we have discussed in other threads loose dogs inconsiderate owners etc. This situation was my fault and have slapped my self for letting it happen I try to be proactive and set things up the way i want them to work just the rest of the local population dont see things my way lolIn this situation it is the first time i have had my dog do this i can exactly where i went wrong and will now begin to fix the problem before it becomes an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Ok am just putting this to memory so all first interactions need to be netruel meeting boring dogs that show no interest boring people etc for how long? Once a value has been given you cant take it back so my pup has a high value on my sisters pup cant change that but can teach him to ignore her throguh obedience and reward for focuss on me he hasnt the same value with other dogs as he hasnt been alloed to play with them so if i was doing it over and using this prgram would i have to find lots of dogs of different types that will ignore him so he values all dogs as zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 4, 2005 Author Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: yes Erny thats correct... YB: Ok am just putting this to memoryso all first interactions need to be netruel meeting boring dogs that show no interest boring people etc for how long? K9: you can start to relax when your dog never shows any interest. YB: Once a value has been given you cant take it back so my pup has a high value on my sisters pup cant change that but can teach him to ignore her throguh obedience and reward for focuss on me K9: yes it will come back to, do not comply & there will be a consequence, but as you can imagine, this will be harder to over come than a dog with no interest in your sisters dog. YB: he hasnt the same value with other dogs as he hasnt been alloed to play with them so if i was doing it over and using this prgram would i have to find lots of dogs of different types that will ignore him so he values all dogs as zero K9: yes but an easier way is dogs that he will be shown to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Ok so now i have something to work with thanks for that a lot of what your saying has been floating aroun inside my head for ages should i do this i definately shouldnt have done that now its making sense i can see where i have gone wrong and why things happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toohey Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 K9: no, I would be 1. temp testing the pup art 6-7 or 8 weeks. Then take it home if its what you want, the breeder can take the pup to shows then bring it back to you, you need to bond with the pup 8 - 12 weeks...I would also be concerned about taking 12 week old to shows, not worth the rsik in my op... Thanks for your response K9, and I promise to sit down and read this thread properly but just wanted to address this: The pup won't be leaving the breeder's yard until around 12 weeks, (hopefully earlier), as she is tossing up about which one to keep. There is also a distance factor. And there are no shows planned until at least 18-20 weeks. I gather you consider the show scene the wrong type of socialisation for a young pup? Or is the lack of full vaccination that is your concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Thanks for the interesting discussion, K9. I've read the whole thing, I think. I have a few questions for you - which I ask because I'm curious about using your methods and not because I disagree with you (wanted to make it clear!). You've said the alpha is supposed to be the 'be all and end all'. (Which I understand and agree with.) How does isolating puppies from 'the pack' compare to pack life 'in the wild'? (As, obviously, 'in the wild', pups would be with the adult dogs and not by themselves.) Where do your other dogs come into the pack structure? Do your dogs have a structure aside from you? You've said that you do not encourage dogs to 'think for themselves' (work on solving puzzles) as it is a form of stress, but I have heard of people who encourage dogs to actively partake in puzzle solving in order to activate the dogs mind, discouraging boredom and so problem behaviour, and also 'mold' the mind to be more receptive to you. One particular believer in this is Mogens Eliasen. What do you think of Mogens Eliasen's ideas? This page specifically about his brainwork book - http://k9joy.com/BrainWorkForSmartDogs/index.php?camp=1975 His entire site: http://k9joy.com/ I am not sure whether your adult dogs are allowed to interact with one another when they're not home - do you worry that, having not had lots of experience with other dogs, that they may fight? Or do they simply not pay enough attention to one another for this to be a consideration/concern of yours? I have heard, suggested in the past, that if a dog lays at a door that you've closed or something similar he is rebelling against your alpha-ism (...word?). Do your dogs do this in their desire to be with you? Do you believe this is them threatening their alpha-ness? Is it possible for dogs to perhaps 'pretend' to not be fixated on you, as so they may return their attention to you and be praised? (e.g. dog sees bird, dog runs up to birds, turns around and comes back to you - just to get your praise) Thanks so much for creating such an interesting discussion. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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