Purple Julie Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I cannot work out why one of my labs who has great desire, trembles with excitement when in drive (any drive). Why wouldn't they? If drives excite them, then why wouldn't they tremble with excitement? Makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 K9: its called adrenalin LL, will get to it either later or in morning PJ, have dogs to torture lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 no e collar training in vic, they are restricted there... lol.. Restricted to use on dogs that have been approved by a vet and under the supervision of a qualified trainer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 K9: thats right! On the movements... You can pick up a lot from the way a dog eats & goes outside... When we have a client that has a dog thats defesive tward its owner, that means afraid, I give them the TOT program & ask them to tell me when the dog starts running straight to the food rather than past it & eats whilst watching them. This tells me the dog now truats them, can go into food drive, which means out of defence. Going outside works the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I know dogs that will not toilet on lead, do you put it to the category of a defence and fear of the owner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 (edited) I cannot work out why one of my labs who has great desire, trembles with excitement when in drive (any drive). Why wouldn't they? If drives excite them, then why wouldn't they tremble with excitement? Makes sense to me. Yes, yes, yes, but..................there is thrembling and there is thrembling. I suppose it could look as though she has low nerves. I have no idea how to type my thoughts on the net. Hopeless case I am. Plus my 6year old is going to a drip tonight, for further tumour removal tomorrow, and I am beside myself with worry. Back to puppy thread. I still think you see the signs with a youngster, their focus, that added puppy naughtiness and extra something (spark?) Edited November 3, 2005 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 YB: Nerves and drive definatelty seem to be an issue for a lot of shelties i know lol they have great drive will work for a toy food etc but as soon as you take them into a new environment they shut down. K9: many dogs are the same... YB: So if i keep working on his drive building will that help overcome the worry when we are training elsewhere K9: putting him in higher drive will help him overcome fear as he wont be focussed on what he fears, rather the toy, if yoi get 50% of his attention on the toy, thts only 50% he has left, you have halfed the problem at this point in training... YB: Also how much of all this is maturity Connor has strong drives at home when out he will work in food drive not prey but is getting better as he gains more focus i tend to find hes great where there is a lot going on but not so great in quiet places with the odd dog appearing barking K9: singular dogs are easy to focus on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 LL: there is thrembling and there is thrembling. I suppose it could look as though she has low nerves. K9: some dogs get turned on nerves through frustration, it coukd be this.... PJ: Wondering if dogs do agility in drive, or if it is simply compliance/obedience, what does k9 think? K9: I watch & see dogs in drive, some not... PJ: Now, it would be easy to blur the lines between avoidance and neutralisation wouldn't it? K9: not when you look at the rest of the body language that goes with it. PJ: Like someone who knows about avoidance but hasn't read this post, who sees one of your dogs ignore something, could mistake that for avoidance. K9: they may say that, but it would tell me they cant read dogs. PJ: Am I right in saying that neutralisation doesn't equal avoidance (drive). K9: avoidance = negative value, neutral couldnt care less. PJ: Ok, so poo and nerves is slightly off topic, but seeing as it has been brought up, I have a question about Jyra's toilet behaviour. Jyra pretty much ONLY does her business at home unless she's desparate, and she can hold on a long time! To illustrate, at the k9force workshop in May, Jyra did not go until she got home and we were out all day. Does that indicate anything about nerves or is it simply Jyra's personal preference for the privacy of the back yard?What does the circling indicate? My grandma's boy dog did that when he did a poo out on a walk, but when Jyra does her poos in the back yard, she just goes straight into out without circling. What does that indicate about nerves? Lastly, I'm not sure whether this is a nerves or a habit thing, but often Jyra likes to be escorted outside when she goes to do her business, especially at night time. We can't just open the door and off she'll go (unless she's busting), because she'll just come right back to the door, we have to go out with her (which is a pain when it's raining!). This could just be what Jyra perceives as required routine or something, as when Jyra was 11months to 16months, I lived above a shop and always had to go outside with her and couldn't just open a door and let her out. K9: I will demo it for you at workshop, tke 2 seconds to see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 To tell you the truth, I cannot work out why one of my labs who has great desire, trembles with excitement when in drive (any drive). This is a very interesting thread LL, my girl does that too, in agility & on sheep. Since we're making car analogies , we call it idling! It's interesting to watch peoples reactions to it, some are amused, some amazed & some downright disturbed . I don't like to let her do it too much & try to keep her focussed on me, but some of it is inevitable. Do you think it affects performance? I guess we all use adrenalin in different ways, with my boys, too much of it just made them idiots, but with her, I think she actually runs better & seems able to focus immediately, both in agility & on sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 V: LL, my girl does that too, in agility & on sheep. Since we're making car analogies wink.gif , we call it idling! K9: its not idling, its stopped with one foot on the brake, the other hard on the gas. V: I don't like to let her do it too much & try to keep her focussed on me, but some of it is inevitable. Do you think it affects performance? K9: I think when the dog has not been taught to relax in drive, it deminshes drive, turns on nerves & this causes many types of fallout, weak grips, chewing dumbells etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Just caught up on all the posts over the last 24 hours ... wow! Great thread. Haven't contributed alot, as many have asked the questions that have popped in my head, and then subsequently answered by K9. Thank you for not allowing a really informative discussion to degenerate - I'm amazed how many don't well tolerate the possibility that there is another, and possibly better way. And can you imagine how many less unforturnate dog/dog and dog/human incidences would occur if K9's socialisation and neutralisation program is as successful as it seems? (Not doubting you, K9 .... but I'm one that needs to read, listen, see and try. Reads and sounds great so far ....). Pity some will close their minds, eyes and ears to it so quickly. My dog is similar in many ways to the description Haven has posted of hers (no drive, weak on nerve). I sit here and wish that I could race straight out and work her in the drives as you mention and envy those who have the opportunity. I'm also torn between wanting to bring her on the 18th, to see if you can achieve with her what I cannot .... or leaving her home as I wonder if she really needs the stress of the outing. Of late, the latter usually wins out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 K9: its not idling, its stopped with one foot on the brake, the other hard on the gas. off topic here a bit, or maybe not... if you do this in the car the car will actually move. Try it - you will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 K9: I will demo it for you at workshop, tke 2 seconds to see... Using a dog, as your demo, we trust .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 E: And can you imagine how many less unforturnate dog/dog and dog/human incidences would occur if K9's socialisation and neutralisation program is as successful as it seems? K9: Any one that has met my GSDs will tell you how many full sentences they understand, they listen very carefully to what I say, it makes for my idea of a dog very close to human intelligence. E: My dog is similar in many ways to the description Haven has posted of hers (no drive, weak on nerve). I sit here and wish that I could race straight out and work her in the drives as you mention K9: whilst we are blubbering lol, I got a 14month old GSD bitch from Cordy, nice looking dog. Starved to the point that normally she would be a 32kg dog, she was about 11kgs when I got her. First 7 months of life in breeders cage, next 7 months with abusive man who beat her & starved her. She was messed up... Each time I looked at her, even though after steriods she began to eat, & put on weight, I felt saddened a good dog was ruined. But occasionally, she wouldnt notice anyone there, & would spot a rabbit, her prey drive would kick in & she would take flight, I cant think of a more beautiful picture of her in full prey drive, down our paddock like a bullet... It took about 18 months, but she came up very well, she will never be the dog she was bred to be, but her quality of life was returned. She would run to me, jump up into my arms in the end... All this with the use of electronics.... I would be happy to take a look at her Erny, there are just some things I cant explain how to do, but watching makes them clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 E:" Using a dog, as your demo, we trust K9: watching me approach a food bowl will teach you very littel other than to move... lol.. Watching the other will teach you that you may need a mask... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 V: LL, my girl does that too, in agility & on sheep. Since we're making car analogies wink.gif , we call it idling! K9: its not idling, its stopped with one foot on the brake, the other hard on the gas. V: I don't like to let her do it too much & try to keep her focussed on me, but some of it is inevitable. Do you think it affects performance? K9: I think when the dog has not been taught to relax in drive, it deminshes drive, turns on nerves & this causes many types of fallout, weak grips, chewing dumbells etc.. Well there goes my attempt at humour...back to lurking I guess. I'm happy to continue to call it idling & lucky for me, I don't need a strong grip & she will probably never see a dumbell. And Yes Myszka, she moves well at least her body does, even if her feet don't . I'm still interested in your reply LL. My comments simply were that in agility, I don't feel that her performance is worse for her IDLING, in fact so far it seems better. Does your girl do it all the time & do you notice a difference in performance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 V : Well there goes my attempt at humour...back to lurking I guess. K9: sorry Vickie if I offended you wa sjust trying tyo give you an idea of what it is like inside your dog, motor straining to go, mind holding it back. V: I'm still interested in your reply LL. My comments simply were that in agility, I don't feel that her performance is worse for her IDLING, in fact so far it seems better. K9: it will be affected onlyu if the dog is trembling as her nerves are turned on, if she is relaxed with an adrenaloin flow, possibly making her wait can elevate her drive through anticipation or frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 V : Well there goes my attempt at humour...back to lurking I guess. K9: sorry Vickie if I offended you wa sjust trying tyo give you an idea of what it is like inside your dog, motor straining to go, mind holding it back. V: I'm still interested in your reply LL. My comments simply were that in agility, I don't feel that her performance is worse for her IDLING, in fact so far it seems better. K9: it will be affected onlyu if the dog is trembling as her nerves are turned on, if she is relaxed with an adrenaloin flow, possibly making her wait can elevate her drive through anticipation or frustration. Nope, not offended. But this is exactly the point I guess I was trying to get to...I just don't have your fancy terminology . I guess my question is...can performance be a measure to determine whether drive is elevated through frustration or anticipation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 I would be happy to take a look at her Erny, there are just some things I cant explain how to do, but watching makes them clear. I guess I'm close enough to the venue to be able to nick her back home if necessary ..... I'll just mention that she is 12 years old, now though ... She'll chase a rabbit .. if it runs (and even then, will give up - the drive is not strong at all). She'll do that with cats too - although they normally have her sussed and stand their ground, so she stops. Not into toys at all. (Except twice - she did a "whizzy" with a tennis ball, but most of the time I can't even get her interested in it.) And if I throw anything, she gives me a 'shrugging' look as if to say "hey, well if you didn't want it, why should I?" She won't hold anything in her mouth, except for a bone. I even soaked a 'toy' in chicken broth to encourage her to 'take it' ... she licked it, but that was all. Food in a kong? If it's too hard to get out, she gives up. She is food driven, save for if she becomes too nervous. I'm thinking she has a strong 'pack' drive (ie to me) ??? Save for my efforts to achieve some drive, all my work has been based on socialisation and confidence building, desensitisation and leadership (and, of course .. obedience skills.) But I'd be happy for your opinion and comments - We'll either achieve another step further in progress, or you'll confirm that I'm already doing what anybody could. Either way, I'll be greatful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Watching the other will teach you that you may need a mask... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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