Socialisation & Neutralisation

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

*I agree about whats said about pups and strange dogs but what about your own dogs and when introuducing a new pup into the home how much time do you allow with the other dogs so they don't become too attached to them and not you ?

K9: I raise my pups separate from adult dogs.

K:

**Theoretically you had a genetically solid nerved dog that had minimum socialisation as a pup, how would you expect it to react to new situations as an adult ? would it be really nervy, shy ?

K9: not minimum socialisation at all, my dogs get exposed to other dogs, all noises, heights, caves, water, you name it, they just dont get to like them so much that they would prefer that over what I ask them to do.

So adults dont see things as new, just of no value, boring.

[Alison1474]

Thanks K9.....

*off to start a new thread on seperation anxiety*

[Steve K9Pro]

Tess:

As you keep saying, your program is not the ONLY option, and so maybe those people just have other people to see or get the same thing in other ways

K9: a percentage of them would see other people, & a percentage would just treat the dog like garden furniture.

Others have the dog put down..

This is an offering of a program that is very low risk to the dog, it has no down sides, for those who will spend time with the dog, having said that, some people like their dog being self sufficient, as I said earlier, it gets you off the hook.

This program will also make every part of your obedience, sport & relationship go smoother, whether you want super high performance or just a pet.

Again, you dont have to do it...

If you were to feel that there were areas of concern, & you had experience to prove those, I would be more than happy to discuss it...

[Lablover]

K9: Lablover, how do you always make threads turn into nerves & drives? fofl..

I do apologise. I become side tracked, in my love of training in drive, with drive, out of drive, returning to creating drive when a dog looses focus, testing drive in other peoples dogs, the applications of different types of drives, etc etc etc.

The above is the short answer. LOL.

It is better than chocolate, it is better than rain on a hot day, it is better than wine, it is better than winning on the races (well, maybe the fellow who bet a million on Diva).

Training in drive is better FOR THE DOG, would be an easier answer I reckon. I have never been a fan of compulsion training.

I will stop adding to this thread, but I love it so............ I must learn focus and control myself!!!

[SpikesPuppy]

SP:

 

Whislt I can understand why you would want to be the sole provider of EVERYTHING for your dog (food, fun, comfort etc) I can't help but wonder what happens if you get sick/die/circumstances change and cannot look after your dog?

K9: new handler takes over...

Fair enough. But woudl the new handler have to continue with the same method and treatment of the dog?

For example, if I die tomorrow, my mum would be looking after my 3 dogs (along with her 2). But I know she doesn't have the time, knowledge, and probably not even the desire, for that kind of relationship with my dogs. Can a dog previously raised via this method ever be retrained to live as the average family mutt?

I also just don't like the idea *personally* of being a dog's be-all-and-end-all. I choose to live with dogs as companions, not as worshippers. The idea of a dog that bends to my every whim with complete devotion just doesn't appeal to me *shrug*. I do enjoy discovering new things with my dogs, learning new tricks together through offered behaviours etc.

Different strokes for differnt folks.

Also, does this method work the same with the more independant/pack-oriented breeds? Such as Terriers bred to work independantly, Spitz breeds, pack hounds like Foxhounds & Beagles etc?

When I go out, I assume the dogs all sleep except for my 15 month Border Terrier. He has the run of the hallway and my mum's bedroom and before we leave I place a few selected toys in with him (different ones each day). I get home and nothing is touched bar his toys which are strewn around his area. he's been left like this since 4months old and he's never chewed anything that wasn't his. As for digging in the garden- he has his own area he is allowed to dig and this is the only place he does dig.

He really is a very easy dog to live with.

So are the others though the 2 bitches have a few problem behaviours (both are rescues) but nothing drastic or that I can't deal with.

[Guest Tess32]

If you were to feel that there were areas of concern, & you had experience to prove those, I would be more than happy to discuss it...

Perhaps you should have specified you only want the thoughts of certain people with a certain amount of experience or with a certain belief system

Nat

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

I do apologise. I become side tracked, in my love of training in drive, with drive, out of drive, returning to creating drive when a dog looses focus, testing drive in other peoples dogs, the applications of different types of drives, etc etc etc.

K9: no apology required, just makes me laugh as I do the same thing..

LL:

I will stop adding to this thread, but I love it so............ I must learn focus and control myself!!!

K9: lol do the opposite keep going!

***************************************

SP:

Fair enough. But woudl the new handler have to continue with the same method and treatment of the dog?

K9: no, the work is already done.

Sp:

Can a dog previously raised via this method ever be retrained to live as the average family mutt?

K9: this type of dog will be just like any dog that lives on its own when at home, even if there are other dogs.

SP:

I also just don't like the idea *personally* of being a dog's be-all-and-end-all.

K9: the Alpha is supposed to be that, few people cover it well enough & hence have issues.

Sp:

I choose to live with dogs as companions, not as worshippers.

K9: if you hold the Alpha status in your home, thats what you would be anyway.

Sp:

The idea of a dog that bends to my every whim with complete devotion just doesn't appeal to me

K9: the apealing part should be that the dog is less distracted & easier to train, with less risks growing up, adoration is a side effect.

Cat people wouldnt like this...

SP:

Also, does this method work the same with the more independant/pack-oriented breeds? Such as Terriers bred to work independantly, Spitz breeds, pack hounds like Foxhounds & Beagles etc?

K9: yes. it removes distraction by neutralising items, it removes fear through socialisation.

Tess:

Perhaps you should have specified you only want the thoughts of certain people with a certain amount of experience or with a certain belief system

K9: I said I would be happy to listen to any concerns you had if you had experiences to back them up, you giving me hypotheticals vs my real time experience is a no win situation for me & this program.

You can keep building your hypothesys until you fall outside the realms if canine behaviour & then exclaim , see there is a situation that this would fail... lol.

I have heard you numerous time tell me that you would prefer a more doggy dog, one that can occupy itself so that you can spend your time elsewhere, you like watching dogs play, I answered with my thoughts, it doesnt change the way I feel or the results I have gained with 1000's of dogs over the years...

Simply put, I am well aware this isnt what you would do, Im also well aware its against a "theory" you believe in & have not tested it in any way, so the simple answer is, dont use it.

Others may gain something from it by using it in whole or in part, or at least effecting some area of their dogs life.

[BOF]

Thanks Nat My thoughts exactly. I have always held the belief that there are as many ways to train a dog as there are dogs - there is no one way that works perfectly with every dog. I have had many years of experience and have always found this to be so. Even though we don't realise it we are learning from every dog we train and every trainer we observe and we (usually) change our methods to accommodate this learning/experience.

K9 can shoot me down in flames but I won't respond as I really don't care what he thinks - I have my ideas - he has his and never the twain shall meet.

BTW K9 from all my 'sources' I believe that both e collars and prong collars are 'outlawed' in NSW which is one of the reasons I have very little faith in your methods. If you have to break the law to train a dog then I don't want to do it.

[Rusky]

a percentage of them would see other people, & a percentage would just treat the dog like garden furniture.

Others have the dog put down..

Most of those too will never attend an obedience session of yours or anyone elses also club/private training sessions are generally not focusing on death row doggies or on dogs with jobs.

[SpikesPuppy]

Continuing on with dogs bred to work independantly & think for themselves- would it remove the dog's ability to work on it's own?

[Guest Tess32]

BTW K9 from all my 'sources' I believe that both e collars and prong collars are 'outlawed' in NSW which is one of the reasons I have very little faith in your methods. If you have to break the law to train a dog then I don't want to do it.

I'm not sure who you are but..

UH OH!

Nat

[Rusky]

spikes Puppy regarding handlers of some dogs....

My brother was in the army, his best was a dog handler with the defence force. There are dogs or at least there were then who can only ever have one handler, when one dogs handler was killed in an RTA the dog had to be PTS. When certain dogs handlers retired those dogs too were pts.

[Rusky]

BTW K9 from all my 'sources' I believe that both e collars and prong collars are 'outlawed' in NSW which is one of the reasons I have very little faith in your methods.  If you have to break the law to train a dog then I don't want to do it.

I'm not sure who you are but..

UH OH!

Nat

[poodlefan]

BOF:

BTW K9 from all my 'sources' I believe that both e collars and prong collars are 'outlawed' in NSW which is one of the reasons I have very little faith in your methods. If you have to break the law to train a dog then I don't want to do it.

I feel no need to defend K9 as he is more than capable of defending himself. However:

Your sources are wrong.

For what its worth, I have taken one of my dogs to see K9. He did not put a prong collar or a e-collar on or near my dog. We employed only 'positive' methods to deal with the issue I confronted. He did work on another timid dog while I was there which did wonders for its confidence. The motivator employed was a toy.

I took the opportunity during my visit to view e-collars and prongs and to try them on myself to see what they were like. I had reservations about their use that were resolved that day. Have you seen either of these devices employed by a knowledgeable trainer? Have you tested them on yourself?

Peronsally, I'd have a prong collar around my neck before a check chain or a halti anyday. My view is that you shouldn't use any training aid that you haven't tried on yourself if possible.

Even Susan Clothier advoctates the use of prong collars to manage strong dogs that pull. Many many trainers, myself included have problems with employment of haltis because as training aids they are constantly aversive to the dog whether it is pulling or not. That's an issue not many advocates of haltis have provided an answer for.

I agree that not all methods suit all dogs. I think an open mind to all methods of training is also a good thing.

[SpikesPuppy]

spikes Puppy regarding handlers of some dogs....

My brother was in the army, his best was a dog handler with the defence force. There are dogs or at least there were then who can only ever have one handler, when one dogs handler was killed in an RTA the dog had to be PTS. When certain dogs handlers retired those dogs too were pts.

That's pretty sad but I can also see some logic in that. With serious working dogs.

But if it was a similar situation with an average pet (creating such a tight bond on purpose so that the dog couldn't live without you) I would consider that incredibly cruel. BUT from K9's response to my query it seems that most dogs transfer their bond to another handler quite readily?

(Not talking about certain individual dogs that just couldn't live with a new person)

[Steve K9Pro]

BOF:

Thanks Nat biggrin.gif My thoughts exactly. I have always held the belief that there are as many ways to train a dog as there are dogs - there is no one way that works perfectly with every dog.

K9: I cant see anywhere here where I said this is the only way? maybe you can point this out to me?

BOF:

K9 can shoot me down in flames but I won't respond as I really don't care what he thinks

K9: thats interesting, this thread is many pages long, seems you have read them all, I started the thread, but you dont care what i say? foflmao...

Some people shoot themselves down...

BOF:

BTW K9 from all my 'sources' I believe that both e collars and prong collars are 'outlawed' in NSW

K9: then you may want to recheck your information, I might also add, I cant see where I have mentioned this has anything to do with e collars or prongs? So I guess your looking for the Attack K9 thread, I believe it happens over PMS, there is a hot tip for you...

Bof:

which is one of the reasons I have very little faith in your methods.

K9: which method have you seen me demonstrate? oh thats right, none. lol. So simply your making some pheeble attempt to have a shot at me based on another thread... dear dear....

BOF:

If you have to break the law to train a dog then I don't want to do it.

K9: seems you have no problem breaking the laws of this forum.

No personal attacks!

From time to time, discussions may grow heated. This is to be expected considering the wide range of people with differing backgrounds and experience that visit here. Reasoned, passionate debates are fine. Personal insults, name calling and attacks however have no place here.

No Trolling

A troll is a person who posts just to inflame others then sits back and watches the fireworks.

K9: Now if you wish to discuss something I have sadi in this thread, or disagree with me, thats fine, but please stick within the rules..

My Momma always said, if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all...

[Alison1474]

You know one thing I've never understood in DOL....

Why people just want to start trouble. Are their lives reall that sad and depressing????

Actually it's kinda funny to watch from here..... I wonder if they realise people are laughing at them ???

Hmmmmmm

[sidoney]

I think an open mind to all methods of training is also a good thing.

Amen to that.

I'm just learning about training with drives and what I have learned so far has been good for me and for my workin' dawg. But I've not thrown my clicker away, either. It's a communication tool. BTW I try to keep the success rate HIGH not 50% - low success rate switches the dog off.

If I know about something, I'll stick my oar in. If I don't, I'll keep my mouth shut (except for questions as many can attest) and my ears open and try to learn as much as possible.

Edited November 3, 2005 by sidoney

[poodlefan]

Sidoney:

It's a communication tool.

Properly employed, so is an e-collar. The stimulation is triggered (its not a 'shock' ) and the dog goes "you talkin' to me?"

I've never used one on my dog (and can't here in the ACT) but gee for long distance training I could see a real use for one.

Edited November 3, 2005 by poodlefan

[Steve K9Pro]

BUT from K9's response to my query it seems that most dogs transfer their bond to another handler quite readily?

K9: dogs trained in old days for the military used methods that seen the dog very difficult to transfer, it wasnt anything to do with this type of program, but the way they trained "other" things.

More War dogs were PTS due to public liability reasons, quarantine risks etc than not being able to go to a new handler.

I have some security people that have several dogs handled by many different handlers...