Socialisation & Neutralisation

[Herr Rottweiler]

Having said that, many dogs do have a lot of say prey drive but their nerves are poor so they cant utilize the drive..

These people can go back to drive development, see if they can get the drive to go higher at home, then blend new environments...

How do you do this exactly? Loki won't touch toys, balls, food etc. Of course everyone's first reaction is "oh you just haven't tried hard enough" or "I bet I can find something he likes"

The thing is, his nerves always get the better of him and he has such a low threshold, even working at a distance doesn't cut it. I have been desensitizing him for the 3.5 years I have had him and he is 100000 times better than he was, has passed advanced obedience etc. If I could just utilise drive to block fear then I feel it would help him immensely but his fear always blocks his drive.

They would have to know Loki to really understand him. Internet diagnosis would never cut it for him

[haven]

Oh yeah, I know that HR! You don't know what you're in for til you meet him

[Purple Julie]

FINALLY! Finished reading through all the posts in this thread! Gee, a lot happens when you don't come here for two days!

Haven, how does Loki react to birds? Does he chase them? I'm sure I read a post you wrote one time saying that you had found one thing that he does like, just curious, what is that?

Steve, K9, I'm wondering how you control flies and birds with relation to your dogs. Obviously we can't control flies and birds, and the dog can self-satisfy its prey drive to a degree by chasing them, and you don't want that, so what do you do with birds and flies? Jyra will chase flies constantly for hours (literally!) given the chance, she will just pace up and down this one spot, going back and forth and then has a mad dash at a fly she has seen. I find it quite entertaining actually! Better than watching TV.

The other thing with regards to other dogs what you said, I found quite interesting. I have found that if Jyra doesn't react aggressively to a dog, the two dogs will sniff each other and then ignore each other. A lot of the time Jyra is interested in going to other dogs to check them out, but at the pet expo I was at recently, Jyra walked straight past other dogs without an interest at all. So, I'm not exactly sure where she's at, being sometimes interested and sometimes not. I do find it interesting that the dogs will often sniff each other and then ignore each other, what is behind that? It's certainly not neutralisation training on my part, and probably not the other owner's part either.

This has been an interesting thread.

Edit: Mistakes

Edited November 2, 2005 by Purple Julie

[haven]

doesn't chase birds, doesn't chase anything. Loves to do agility, jumping and tramping around playing GIJoe, makles him feel like a man methinks

[SpikesPuppy]

Whislt I can understand why you would want to be the sole provider of EVERYTHING for your dog (food, fun, comfort etc) I can't help but wonder what happens if you get sick/die/circumstances change and cannot look after your dog?

Not quite the same, but I trained my Newfoundland to only take food from my hand or from his bowl upon my command. I went away for a weekend and the whole weekend he would not eat. He wasn't fretting or pining for me (though he did spend most of his time beside my bed). Soon as I got home I put his bowl down, gave him the command and away he went.

Then a few months later he went to a boarding kennel- same thing; he just would not eat and I had to collect him early. So I spent some time re-training him to eat from other people etc.

So yeah, I'm concerned what happens to the dog if it's World (human) is taken away?

Also I'm just wondering- that method of bonding etc, that wouldn't really work if you worked a 9-5 day would it? Even if you had to work a few hours a day, unless it was from home or you had regular access to the dog you would have to occupy it somehow via toys or something?

Personally I like the idea of my dogs being like dogs. There's nothing I love more than seeing my young Border Terrier constantly 'making up' new games with his toys/balls. And I love seeing the dogs do zoomies around the yard together. I love telling Caber to 'pick a toy' each night before bed and seeing him dig around in his toybox, choose his toy and then proudly trott off down the hallway and plop on his blanket.

Edited November 2, 2005 by SpikesPuppy

[Hazz]

K9 - off topic - but when are you coming to SA ???

[Rusky]

Not quite the same, but I trained my Newfoundland to only take food from my hand or from his bowl upon my command

I do that with all my dogs but when Rusky went to kennel I forgot to leave the release command, still being a malamute she kept looking and looking and after a few minutes ate anyway

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

Regarding the window of opportunity in pups raised as potential working dogs, there have been various studies around the world, in leaving pups with their dams till much older than the normal (6-8 week) rehoming, but with human contact of course.

K9: glad your enjoying the thread, I was hoping people wouldnt think it over the top.

I have read similar studies, & when we teach bite work & prey drive work, a lot of people like to have puppies watch on, Im not a fan of this, other than the risk of line aggression transferred to the pups, (dog turning & biting pups) we cant really install each step in the dogs mind, its see's a whole picture & without foundation of each step, the work often falls apart when ever there is any pressure added.

You also miss a great opportunity to bond with the pups from 8 weeks on.

When I did the info nite of late, 85% of the success I got with those dogs was through leadership, this is very easy to obtain when your the centre of teh dogs earth...

*********************************

H:

How do you do this exactly? Loki won't touch toys, balls, food etc. Of course everyone's first reaction is "oh you just haven't tried hard enough" or "I bet I can find something he likes"

K9: I remember working with a very good US trainer years ago, he was teaching tracking, someone had been putting a botcher on the dog, to keep its nose on the ground, he said this "if the dog wont sniff on its own, you need another dog or a goal to suit that dog".

He meant you cant make a dog do something it wasnt designed to do, this wasnt a breed specific comment, it was a temperament specific comment.

Your dog may or may not have sufficient prey drive to be trained in prey drive, it may have nerve issues that stop the dog going into drive, or going into drive around you, there could also be a control thing limited/restricting drive.

These can all be tested, but look at the section I wrote about drive, if your struggling to get drive, best to find another motivator.

To develop prey drive in a dog that is interested in toys you need to determine where the problem lays, nerves, control or is the dog unsure what to do..

Its always easier when they are pups as they are less respectfull of you & thye control thing doesnt play a part...

Can you tell me more about your dog when toys are used?

H:

If I could just utilise drive to block fear then I feel it would help him immensely but his fear always blocks his drive.

K9: this is where I talk about positive & negative drives, positive prey, food, play, hunt etc.

Negative avoidance, defence, rank etc..

When the dogs nerves are weak, the negative drives kick in & you cant get the positive ones working...

Negative drives will always over rule positive, as they are basic survival modes.

I would start by tying up the dog in your yard, no other dogs. Flat collar or harness.

Get a fishing line & attach a small rag, size of your foot for eg, unless your big foot lol..

Then stand way back & cast the rag into the circle, the moment the dog looks at it, jerk it away, as if the look of the dog caused the prey to flee...

If you play this for 3 minutes, 3 times per day 7 days per week for two weeks, you will have a dog trying to capture the item or you will be 100% sure that you wont be using prey drive.

[Steve K9Pro]

PJ:

Steve, K9, I'm wondering how you control flies and birds with relation to your dogs.

K9: as you can imagine, with all of the prey games I play, flies & birds arent any where near as satisfying...

PJ:

and the dog can self-satisfy its prey drive to a degree by chasing them

K9: A dog with a high prey drive requires big satisfaction, flies may occupy the dog but not satisfy it.

I use fly traps here, we dont have any flies... lol..

Birds, they hunt them with rabbits, & they catch them often, but often isnt like with me, 100% of the time..

PJ:

Jyra walked straight past other dogs without an interest at all

K9: she may have alos been in avoidance...

SP:

Whislt I can understand why you would want to be the sole provider of EVERYTHING for your dog (food, fun, comfort etc) I can't help but wonder what happens if you get sick/die/circumstances change and cannot look after your dog?

K9: new handler takes over...

Sp:

Not quite the same, but I trained my Newfoundland to only take food from my hand or from his bowl upon my command. I went away for a weekend and the whole weekend he would not eat.

K9: your dog has a negative value for someone bearing food, its not the same. New handler takes over, spends a few days with the dog, starts playing he will take over.

Sp:

Also I'm just wondering- that method of bonding etc, that wouldn't really work if you worked a 9-5 day would it?

K9: of course, dogs learn to sleep when your at work, interact when your at home.

Sp:

Even if you had to work a few hours a day, unless it was from home or you had regular access to the dog you would have to occupy it somehow via toys or something?

K9: my dogs are in my garage where they have pens when im training, this can be 16 hours, of course I toilet them every 6. They sleep, so when they come out, if available they can work.

Sp:

Personally I like the idea of my dogs being like dogs.

K9: dogs in the wild dont run up to strange dogs, animals or people... So its no different.

Sp:

There's nothing I love more than seeing my young Border Terrier constantly 'making up' new games with his toys/balls. And I love seeing the dogs do zoomies around the yard together. I love telling Caber to 'pick a toy' each night before bed and seeing him dig around in his toybox, choose his toy and then proudly trott off down the hallway and plop on his blanket.

K9: try thinking of some of the things you dont like, you might find they are connected with the things you do...

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K9 - off topic - but when are you coming to SA ?

K9: when you organise it

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Its not normal for dogs to befriend any dog that comes along, thats something we add... If a wild dog in a pack ran up to another, when it came back the Alpha would more than likely issue it a correction...

The dog is part of your pack, so this is a totally natural thing.

The dogs I have raised this way dont want for anything, many people when they see my bitch loom at me say "my god, she adores you"... She knows I have everything she could ever want or need...

[Lablover]

If you play this for 3 minutes, 3 times per day 7 days per week for two weeks, you will have a dog trying to capture the item or you will be 100% sure that you wont be using prey drive.

I agree, but would I be bothered, no. If it took that amount of turn IT ON, I would have grave doubts regarding the future for high level stardards.

Back to the topic at hand, or at least discussing young pups, LOL, one of my puppy tests is having the litter chase a rag on a long rope. By the second or third day, as soon as the rope is produced, the eyes come alive, and the fun begins, and ends when I am too tired to run any more. I then move to an unknown area with each pup, and observe them and begin the rag chase game again.

I have a poo test too, LOL. Strange one for sure. Bizarre actually!!! My best dogs (in leve of desire) when pups and in their run, as soon as they saw me, in there excitement when seeing me, would pick up the first thing that was available. Yucccccckkkkkk.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: these are the steps people need to take if they have the dogs that fall into the low drive scores & they are desperate to train in prey.

I too wouldnt be backing the results gained but I dont back lower drive dogs.

LL:

one of my puppy tests is having the litter chase a rag on a long rope. By the second or third day, as soon as the rope is produced, the eyes come alive, and the fun begins, and ends when I am too tired to run any more. I then move to an unknown area with each pup, and observe them and begin the rag chase game again.

K9: yes, this is a good test, chasing with other litter mates determines prey drive level, the one who tries hardest has the most drive, the test on its onw is a nerve tes, to see if it can go into drive in a strange area.

To add to this, say I sold a puppy I had completed this test on & they came back saying it wouldnt go into prey drive in a strange area, this tells me the S&N went wrong, as genetically the pup did have the ability.

LL:

I have a poo test too, LOL.

K9: so do I but its a nerve test, when a dog starts to poop, does it do it regardless of my location, or does it circle when doing it, keeping an eye on everything...

This tells me much about the dog, a strong nerved dog doesnt feel open when in that mode..

[PAX]

LL:

I have a poo test too, LOL.

K9: so do I but its a nerve test, when a dog starts to poop, does it do it regardless of my location, or does it circle when doing it, keeping an eye on everything...

This tells me much about the dog, a strong nerved dog doesnt feel open when in that mode..

Excuse my ignorance, Are you saying that if a dog circles when emptying in a strange area that it is weaker nerved than a dog who does not???

I will have to pay more attention to how my dogs poop, I'm pretty sure they just do it with no circling.

Who would of thought pooing could give you information

I love this topic

[Guest Tess32]

K9: try thinking of some of the things you dont like, you might find they are connected with the things you do...

Sometimes they are worth it

It comes down to the type of dog you want, the type of life you want for your dog, and the type of relationship you want to have.

I'd have no doubt your program works, and produces some very focused, satisfied dogs.

I noticed you mentioned your dogs don't offer behavours for example, and you don't want them to. Fair enough - but for some of us I'd bet that's one of the most valuable aspects of entering into a training relationship with your dog, and there really is nothing I enjoy more than seeing my dog figure out a problem and try things and offer behaviours. If this makes him less reliable, I don't care - it makes our training relationship rewarding to me, and hopefully to him, and I wouldn't swap it for a more "perfect" performing dog. That doesn't make me unenlightened and walking around a flat earth, btw

Part of the joy in owning dogs for *me* is seeing their dogginess, independent of me, and seeing them have a r/ship with each other, seeing them romp around, seeing them play with toys by themselves. I don't want any creature on the earth to derive all it's pleasure in life from one person.

I'll limit resources and make me the source, but the idea of having them sleep when I'm not there and only enjoy me? Not for me, that's for sure.

Perhaps some people might think this is positive training waffle and mumbo jumbo, but while I figure some people may make a lot of mistakes by assuming they are right and ignoring good advice, I feel a lot of other people may have avoided some damaging trainers or advice if they had listenened to their own gut instinct on what is right for them and their dog. *shrug*.

Nat

[MonElite]

I'll limit resources and make me the source, but the idea of having them sleep when I'm not there and only enjoy me? Not for me, that's for sure.

If I had a choice between my dog sleeping when Im not there and my dog digging holes in my yard and pulling washing off the line when Im not there, I choose him sleeping any day.

Nat - you sound like a perfect candidate to be on owner of a LSG breed of a dog where they do so much more of independent thinking than other breeds.

[Guest Tess32]

I'll limit resources and make me the source, but the idea of having them sleep when I'm not there and only enjoy me?  Not for me, that's for sure.

If I had a choice between my dog sleeping when Im not there and my dog digging holes in my yard and pulling washing off the line when Im not there, I choose him sleeping any day.

Nat - you sound like a perfect candidate to be on owner of a LSG breed of a dog where they do so much more of independent thinking than other breeds.

But why is it either/or? The oppiosite of sleep is not destructiveness! (well, barring all adolescent labs )

Neither of my dogs are destructive when alone. I chose a breed appropriate for myself, which is the Rough Collie. They sleep sometimes during the day, but also play with each other, or just amuse themselve with toys. Sounds good to me

I wouldn't want a LSG type - they sound like they need very confident owners. I'm about as alpha-ish as a mouse.

Collies are great for me - Easy to train, not destructive, not hyper, not very dominant and family oriented. It's all about choosing the right breed and knowing your limits.

I've had two GSDs and wouldn't have another

I use both of mine as therapy dogs every now and then and their behaviour makes us proud.

Nat

[MonElite]

Nat - just a question. If you had one dog what would it be doing if you were not there?

I know mine sleeps most of the time, if I leave a bone he might occupy himself with it for a while. Other than that I think he just walks around the verandah and moves himself from one side of his body to the other snoozing.

(thinking now about instaling a video camera to see what he really does....)

When I had visiting dogs I know they played, there was evidence of it in the yard.

[MonElite]

K9 when you are not at home, when there is noone home for long time, (obviously something not usual at your place) your dogs stay together? What do they do?

[Guest Tess32]

Reilly used to be an "only child". He is alone from 7-2.30 - he basically walks around, plays with his sausage toy a lot (and still does, by himself), switches to his ball, goes to sleep, eats his bone, plays some more etc etc.

I recorded a couple of hours once, heh.

Nat

[haven]

QUOTE (K9 Force @ 2nd Nov 2005 - 11:37 PM)

If you play this for 3 minutes, 3 times per day 7 days per week for two weeks, you will have a dog trying to capture the item or you will be 100% sure that you wont be using prey drive. 

I agree, but would I be bothered, no. If it took that amount of turn IT ON, I would have grave doubts regarding the future for high level stardards.

K9: these are the steps people need to take if they have the dogs that fall into the low drive scores & they are desperate to train in prey.

I too wouldnt be backing the results gained but I dont back lower drive dogs.

I'm not looking for 'high level standards', nor am I 'desperate' to train in prey drive. What I am working with is the concept that drive blocks fear. If I can develop and utilise his 'positive' drives, then it may help me help him overcome some of his issues. He is trained in obedience, I'm not interested in competetion or anything like that, I just want to imporve his quality of life. He's my dog, I made a commitment to owning him when I got him from the RSPCA. He's not perfect, but I don't have the luxury of not working with what I have, as I'm not prepared to get rid of him and get a new dog that would be more able.

Will definately have to bring him on the 18th.

[Lablover]

Haven and others,

I agree, it depends on what we want to achieve and more importantly how they translate in what the dog is capable of.

Our first labrador was a lovely hunting dog, but did not have the drive for high level competitions. She plodded through CDX and NRD. We loved her anyway and she stayed with us until her death at 15 years of age, a few weeks ago. My husband had to take two day off work he was was so upset. But if I had the experience, (I think I have nowadays, LOL), I would have washed her to a pet home, when she was young. She was a great snake detector too!!!

Training a dog in prey drive, who has the desire, is like driving a Ferrari. (Mind you I have only driven such a vehicle once, LOL, and the damm thing took off so fast I nearly ran into a tree).

Again this topic is great. Wait till we start discussing control in drive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 3, 2005 by Lablover