Socialisation & Neutralisation

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

but that's just mean... I can just picture it....poor bugga gets all excited then ... "Ohhhh but Dad I was nearly there"

K9: it wasnt another GSD, so.. bad luck... or go hide where I cant see, lol..

Of course the whole concept was that, believe it or not, he was eager to hop off & run to me, no he isnt gay....

[Alison1474]

[yogibear]

Hi K9

Ok so my pups seven months old has been in heaps of different environments and we train at all of them so works with varing amount of distraction when i say work i mean he is doing foundation stuff for trial work and im asking for things he knows well in these environments He has a great recall but i have kept him on a long line when i am out in the open at dog club etc just incase he did get the urge to nick off he hasnt so far the worst he did was stop to look at what a group of dogs and people were doing once because someone was yelling

so should i now set up scenarios like you have said where i have a boring person that wont even look at him standing there and let him of the long line to train if he goes over they ignore him and i recall him to a good game and food then add the boring dog etc That was what i planned to do not that i think he would even bother with the person anyway then build up to more intersting people and dogs

thast what i did with my last dog and i havent had issues with my dogs showing any great interest in others

yb

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

K9 would you say that some dogs are more "doggy dogs" and others are more "human dogs" regardless of the sort of imprinting we do??

K9: excellent question, I would say that;

dogs raised with other dogs are what I call Too Doggy, they look to the other dog too much for everything...

for other dogs, if you know what the dog needs, & provide it, I havent come accross a dog that this program doesnt work on 100%.

I had a client come to me with a Belgian, out of control, high drive solid nerve young big dog...

I taught her how to gain control, then satisfy ever need this dog has, 1 prey drive satisfaction, 2. pack drive satisfaction, 3 food drive satisfaction.

In no time this dog was beyond belief, but the lady was dedicated & hard working..

She brought the dog to a workshop, some may have seen her, dog was called Rex & owner Jenny..

K":

I tend to sway towards genetics somewhat in that I feel this plays some part on the sort of dog you'll end up with.

K9: of course, if the above dog had no prey drive, we would have satisfied it in some other way..

K:

Of course, the socialisation/neutralisation a handler does is very important, but I believe that some dogs, no matter how much we neutralise them may be prone to seeking others of their kind more so than humans.

I'd love to know you thoughts on this.

K9: the dog may be limited somewhat by lack of drives or nerves, but outside of that I have used this on many dogs, even LGD's with no interest in humans, no prey drive etc, still they gained a lot from it...

When you havent seen this before, it looks like your dog working on its bets day under no distraction, as usualu when you add distraction, the work suffers, this program removes many standard distractions...

[Lablover]

K9 force,

I was wondering if you could expand on nerves please.

For example, stable responses with new stimuli.

A few high level retrievers I know, are fantastic working dogs, but have poor reactions when in new situations.

[Kelpie-i]

I work with drives and must admit that when I come accross a dog with low prey drive, it is a little hard for this dog to find anything exciting, let along it's own owner/handler most of the time.

Most of the owners are dedicated and these dogs usually come through (once the dog's object of affection is discovered).....I would say that most of the time problems like this are due to a) some form of leadership issue b) the dog having access to its toys/treats and handler 24/7 c) low drive. Either one or a mixture of all.

In the case of pound dogs, most of them (and I say this lightly) seem to be highly focussed on their new owners. Would you say this is due to them being incarcerated (sp?) for a period of time only to be entertained by their new owners. I say this as I have noticed this occur from time to time. Since we don't know what the previous owners have done with the dog prior to surrender, one can only assume that this would be a genetic trait in the dog rather than successful neutralisation. ??

Edited November 2, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

K9 force,

I was wondering if you could expand on nerves please.

For example, stable responses with new stimuli.

A few high level retrievers I know, are fantastic working dogs, but have poor reactions when in new situations.

K9: this means that they may have a low threshold to avoidance, they see something that they dont understand, it triggers fear in one dog, dog with better nerves might trigger prey drive..

The foundation of a working dog is solid nerves, & a good pet too.

You can have all the (positive) drive you like but it will not trigger when the dogs nerves kick in & trigger negative drives...

K:

I work with drives and must admit that when I come accross a dog with low prey drive, it is a little hard for this dog to find anything exciting, let along it's own owner/handler most of the time.

K9: I guess this means your spoilt, lol... I find high drive dogs easy to work with but many trainers hate a dog that moves without force...

K:

In the case of pound dogs, most of them (and I say this lightly) seem to be highly focussed on their new owners. Would you say this is due to them being incarcerated

K9: I think it falls back on the NILIF program, none or very little attention...

K:

Since we don't know what the previous owners have done with the dog prior to surrender, one can only assume that this would be a genetic trait in the dog. ??

K9: impossible to tell unless you seen & tested the dog before & after the event. But dogs that have starved once, always seem to be food motivated, same for ones starved for affection I would say.

[Lablover]

Off subject, sorry.

K9 force have many pet owners have you come across, who think their dogs are perfect candidates for training in prey drive, and are not?

[Kelpie-i]

K9: I guess this means your spoilt, lol... I find high drive dogs easy to work with but many trainers hate a dog that moves without force...

Definitely am....started working with drives just over 2 years ago and haven't looked back. Dog and owners love it and accelerates the training!

Thanks for your answers/comments. Interesting point where the starved dog is driven by food and the affection starved dog driven by affection. I certainly see some of these but more often those that get way too much of these things LOL!

[Lablover]

Definitely am....started working with drives just over 2 years ago and haven't looked back. Dog and owners love it and accelerates the training!

Kelpie,

What breed of dogs have you had the most success with?

Some dogs I have performed my little experiments on, had limited levels of prey. Naturally I blame myself, thinking I was not doing something right, as the owners felt confident that their dogs had a lot of prey drive.

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

K9 force have many pet owners have you come across, who think their dogs are perfect candidates for training in prey drive, and are not?

K9: lol, thats an extreme understatement.. Not just pet owners, working dog owners, breeders, trainers lol...

Having said that, many dogs do have a lot of say prey drive but their nerves are poor so they cant utilize the drive..

These people can go back to drive development, see if they can get the drive to go higher at home, then blend new environments...

[Kelpie-i]

LL,

All breeds of dogs, surprisingly enough even the little ones go hard. But we start developing their prey drive from when they are young puppies in most cases, which is the best time.

When a dog commences at an older age, the drive is raw and has never had a proper outlet so we teach the dog to channel it. Those dogs with low drive and weak nerves we certainly don't push. This is where patience is the key and we eventually find what drives the dog even if it's somewhat.

Edited to say: I speak of general companion obedience training only.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I have a drive rating in my head of what I would score each dog, dogs that have a drive rating lower than 4/10 due to nerves I dont recommend training in drive, it can be done when the dogs nerves settle but when the dog gets nervy the ob goes out the window.

dogs that range from 5 - 6 / 10 are ok for general ob, 7 plus sports, Law enf, retrivers etc..

I think that whne the levels fall below that, its too unrewarding.

When the dogs nerves get turned on, out of fear or uncertainty, it lowers the drive in each case, in the low level dogs, it bombs them out, in mid level it only gets average results & in the high level it takes the edge off the dog.

So when I S&N its to keep things at their peak.

Edited November 2, 2005 by K9 Force

[Kelpie-i]

I agree K9...the risk of creating an even more feaful dog by trying to push drive isn't worth it. It creates a great deal of angst for both dog and owner.

I've found that this sort of dog is best trained (again I speak only of companion obedience) using a gentle reward system being whatever the dog sees as a reward (this also has to be worked on)...in extremely small steps with lots of slow confidence building.

Most (not all) of these dogs do eventually learn to work in drive as their confidence levels build.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I agree, if I have ti handle this dog, I usually use a bit of escape training, to get the dog comfortable near me, then go to food luring, when I have the dog up in temp I may try food drive...

A good explaination I use is, a dog with soft nerves is like trying to push a baloon with a pin, fraction too much pressure & bang.

Hard dog is like pushing medicine ball with 2x4, you can apply a lot of pressure with no problems...

[Lablover]

I have been reading the thread again, and am really enjoying it.

Thanks again K9 for bringing up this topic.

Regarding the window of opportunity in pups raised as potential working dogs, there have been various studies around the world, in leaving pups with their dams till much older than the normal (6-8 week) rehoming, but with human contact of course.

Conclusion with one study:

The finding that simply observing trained mothers performing a learned task had a significant positive effect on a pup's ability to perform the same task 3 months later, without any further reinforcement, has a disrection application to current working dog training practices. This is at least true for the task in this study (location of narcotics). By taking advantage of a period in ontogeny when pups are apparently sensitive to the acquisition of maternal behaviour, learing can occur directively. Our data shows that observational learning taking place at any early age can augment or, in the case of some individuals, even replace the usual time-consuming operant conditioning techniques used in the training of adult working dogs, as well as increased the proportion of dogs whch show an aptitude for the particular task.

[PAX]

I have two Dobes (as everyone probably knows) the first one was raised on a farm and we owned a whippet. The whippet and the Dobe would come riding with us and chase wallabys and whatever else. When i got my dog Ruben, I didn't let him run with the others because i knew it would of been far more rewarding than anything i could provide. Now he is two and he looks to me for all fun and he thinks all the best things come from me. I can play with him anywhere and he would never leave me. He loves to play with our bitch but he would always prefer to work with me than play with her.

Our bitch is also good to train but she would rather hunt than work.

I agree totally with what K9 is saying because i can see with my own dogs the difference and i really didn't have a clue, I just happened to make a good decision almost by accident.

I love how much these dogs have and will continue to teach me about dog training.

[Lablover]

I love how much these dogs have and will continue to teach me about dog training.

Amen!!!!

My respect for dogs, especially the ones who are so full of desire to work, whatever their requirements, is a wonderful gift.

[haven]

Having said that, many dogs do have a lot of say prey drive but their nerves are poor so they cant utilize the drive..

These people can go back to drive development, see if they can get the drive to go higher at home, then blend new environments...

How do you do this exactly? Loki won't touch toys, balls, food etc. Of course everyone's first reaction is "oh you just haven't tried hard enough" or "I bet I can find something he likes"

The thing is, his nerves always get the better of him and he has such a low threshold, even working at a distance doesn't cut it. I have been desensitizing him for the 3.5 years I have had him and he is 100000 times better than he was, has passed advanced obedience etc. If I could just utilise drive to block fear then I feel it would help him immensely but his fear always blocks his drive.

[Lablover]

Haven,

I should imagine it would be like trying to push a rope up a hill.

One of my best females, who in not just my humble opinion, but by others, is what I consider sensitive. Frankly is that poor nerves???. I worried at one stage, early in her training on hidden retrieves, she would look up at me not out. I already knew she had a high level of desire, so was not concerned with her work ethic. She tries so hard.

I stopped blind training for a few days and reverted to simple drills. Sight blinds etc. Also the next time she glanced up, I knelt down besideher and deeply stroked her, whispering its OK girl, its OK.

She has been fine since.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Lablover