MaxSpots Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 my plan is to take my dog everywhere I can when it is around 8 - 14 weeks, I run it up stairs platforms & teach it to ignore people & other dogs etc.I make noises bang things & so on train all the moves, develop the drives I want. The next 8 or so weeks I keep the dog at home when its in the first fear period, this enables me to help my pup avoid the pitfalls in public. When I see the dogs temp firm up again, its time to start some serious training, by 10 - 12 months, the dogs training can be 100 % reliable, even though some think you cant get that, you can. I use the model www.k9force.net/develop.html to help people understand temperament flaws. I would be intereted to hear others thoughts on this. K9: The next 8 or so weeks I keep the dog at home when its in the first fear period, this enables me to help my pup avoid the pitfalls in public. This is where I went wrong Got my pup at 12 weeks and I see now that I threw her in the deep end during what I now know is a fear period. K9: by 10 - 12 months, the dogs training can be 100 % reliable, even though some think you cant get that, you can. Have seen this with a friends blue heeler, they got it at 6 weeks and here was I with all my internet learning prediciting that they would have all sorts of problems. He's a Ute dog/works with a landscape gardener, so was carted around from job to job exposed to everything, has turned into the most obedient well behaved, easy going dog at 12 just months, can't fault him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison1474 Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 I'm loving this thread............ Learning heaps and starting to get a million questions and scenerios in my head but I'll save them for later in case they are answered before I ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 And as long as I can call him away from his beloved friends or hated enemies Im happy for him to play. Apart of allowing him play with dogs he knows and likes I have no intentions of ever arriving in a dog park seeing a group of dogs chasing ball and letting him off leash to mingle with the rest. With you on this, Myszka .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Amhailte - I've not heard it called this term before, but I think it's where the dog is penned or crated so that the only pleasure the dog has is his "work". Commonly used, I believe, for scent detector dogs and such like. Not harsh when the dogs train and work alot - those dogs often receive much more attention and time from their owners/trainers than the average "pet dog" owner. As someone has probably already answered, it's a specific program by Susan Garrett (not sure of spelling) and I believe (not sure) is for any dog, not just specialist dogs. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 I guess I can afford to be a blase about the topic, as my dogs are not the type of dogs to go bananas when they see other dogs or people. As I had neither as pups, I can't take credit for having 'neutralized' dogs and people, they just generally aren't that excited about other people or dogs, Loki especially. In thinking about many dogs I see at training, I can really see that it can be a big issue as with many dogs, all training and focus goes out the window in the presence of other people and/or dogs. I always considered this to be a training, or more specifically a proofing issue, but now I see that it can be affected by socialization also. Although, I always make a point of controlling the things that my dog really like and as no-one else feeds or plays with my dogs and neither are really inclined to play with other dogs, it's never been an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 Tess: My first reaction is to dislike the idea that the dog enjoys nothing but things that come from me. K9: Our first thoughts were that the earth was flat.. Discovery proved us wrong... Why would you want your dog seeking good things from other dogs? Your dog may run up to another, only to have its but kicked, that doesnt even go into the obedience side... Tess: Maybe if the dog has lives on the line and needs absolute reliability... K9: everyone needs absolute reliability in a crisis, thats the time that those who dont train well wont have it. Tess: I guess I want my dog, like any living thing, to enjoy other members of its species, to enjoy playing by itself with a ball etc. K9: that gets you off the hook time wise... Tess: It depends what you want out of a dog. We all have different ideas of acceptable risks. Personally the sight of my dogs enjoying a good romp with their other doggie friends is more valuable to me than a perfectly reliable obedience dog. K9: personally I dont feel the gains are there & the risks are warranted. My dogs love to play with me, they get plenty of it. Tess: Out of interest, do you ever let the dog have toys by itself? K9: no, toys in my home are prey items & they are my tools. Tess: And do your dogs ever get to play with other dogs? K9: like I said, not when they are developing, but now, yes, but not for them, more for some of the dogs I treat, each one of them has a less than moderate interest in other dogs. LL: What makes a champion? Sound nerves, right? K9: nerves followed by drives. lol.. TO: My dogs are companions first and foremost everything else comes second, i want to see excitement on my dogs faces when they are doing something they love that doesnt involve me. K9: companionship for the dog is build on a bond of leadership, if your dogs think you are God, its only better for the both of you... A: I think that it's nice for my dog to be able to play with his dog friends K9: I agree, but like you I dont feel it has any real value that I cant give & I wont let anything else suffer in favour of it, that includes the dog. Tess: I wasn't talking about recalls, I'm talking about an obedience dog in general as K9 seems to be saying that having a dog's enjoyment all stem from him creates a dog that is easy to train in other ways because it is more focused and not distracted by the environment. K9: recall is the most important command, & its the one the benefits most from this ideal. Tess: Now I assume we're talking really really really reliable, as in, heel through fire kinda reliable and not just "come Rover!" when we're down at the park. K9: no come Rover down the park is good too, will your dogs recall under any distraction? Tess: As I stated before *I'm not talking about recalls* - I'm talking about the kind of dog I interpret K9's post to be about, a dog that is fully focused on the handler and so has an extremely high level of focus and obedience. K9: Im not really talking about just high level dogs, Im talking about basic recalls, I mean there are many people that have what they call a "pretty good recall", I would demonstrate that it is pretty poor under distraction... Im sure your aware of the PP trainers motto, "make yourself more attarctive to the dog"? Well when your the centre of the earth for the dog, your pretty dam attractive... So one wonders how I am suppose to exercise her when she just won't run K9: sit, stay (you walk away) come... lo.. R": just also thought to mention something else after reading Vickies post, lots of people live with several dogs so there is a social pack of dogs, all dependant on the leader fo course. K9: yes but the leader is rarely the human, I dont raise my pups running with my other dogs, again by 12 - 18 months they run togther, not until. Y: I do let my dogs says hi to toher dogs but only for a short persiod on lead long enough to realise they arent a threst but short enough that the interaction is pretty blasaise K9: sometimes I can walk up to someone with my dog & he will simply ignore them & their dog. If I say "say hello" he might give them a kiss or stamnd for a pat, but he doesnt really care... So, has anyone done the 'Ruff Love' system with their dogs? K9: I feel its a little bond depriving, not suitable for many dogs.. PF: I have to say that in my situation, my dogs spends a fair bit of time in the company of dogs they don't live with. Therefore they need to get on with my friends dogs at least. K9: thats like me, remember neutral value, not negative value, sometimes I have my dogs loose with 20 protection trained dogs working, they cant interupt, nor fight, nor bite all the decoys before or after its their turn. A decoy comes out, I turn him into a prey item with a command, its like lighting him up. PF: Focus is an interesting issue. K9: I used my male GSD a few weeks ago with a very big (80plkus kgs) dog aggressive dog, whilst this dog was hackling at him & growling 3 feet away, I raised my hand & gave him a drive command that seen him kick into prey drive & the other dog was blended out of his concern. Yes he has solid nerves but its that easy with this work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Lol @ Tess, I assumed we were just talking about basic obedience under distraction! Ok I exaggerate slightly with the fire walking Basically I mean, I don't think it's incredibly difficult to get a dog to recall from playing dogs. It is a lot more planned effort to get an all round highly handler focused dog that *only* finds it handler/owner to be a wonderful thing. And that's the kind of dog I was referring to. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 A: I'm confused, did I say something wrong? I've met dogs who have been hurt and scared by strange dogs, and they had dog aggression issues afterwards K9: lol, nothing wrong, my male from the moment training started has been taught that he can not be beaten, he knows no fear. He went through a period at about 4 years old where he was a little unstimulated by being attacked by only one decoy, he liked 3 plus.. lol.. He is old boy now 9 year old, but he still is 48 kgs of muscle, & can still has a bite like a vice. When people arroach the door to our garage where his pen is, he can move them away quite fast with his bear like growl... E: And, if I have the correct grasp of K9's view here, a dog failing to recall would also suggest the dog sees the other dogs as higher value than the owner - hence, it has not been "neutralised" to outside distractions such as other dogs. K9: yes, thats right, I dont sabotage my training by allowing the dog to gain value over something that will not help me later. My male will recall off a mate btw lol... M: He's a Ute dog/works with a landscape gardener, so was carted around from job to job exposed to everything, has turned into the most obedient well behaved, easy going dog at 12 just months, can't fault him. K9:and with probably little formal training.... So, get a dog with genetics, good nerves & drive & add this to good training... imagine... ***************** Tess: Ok I exaggerate slightly with the fire walking K9: heeling under gun fire..... I take my dogs swimming, I can heel them whilst I swim... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Tess: My first reaction is to dislike the idea that the dog enjoys nothing but things that come from me. K9: Our first thoughts were that the earth was flat.. Discovery proved us wrong... I thought this was a discussion but to me it kinda sounds like you are 100% certain - sometimes gut reactions are right too. Oh and no, my male would have trouble recalling from a kookaburra and horses. I keep him on a long leash in the places these tend to be anyway. He doesn't really have a high interest in strange dogs, so I have no problems recalling him from them. My bitch has an excellent recall but it wasn't my doing, she just naturally thinks humans are the best thing ever invented. She still enjoys having a good play with little dogs though, and I enjoy watching her have fun. They get a lot of enjoyment from each other as well. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 Tess: I thought this was a discussion but to me it kinda sounds like you are 100% certain K9: I am certain I have raised lots of dogs this way & advised many more raise thier dogs too. I try & study the behavioural logistics & imapct before I add a training step to any program I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 K9: lol, nothing wrong, my male from the moment training started has been taught that he can not be beaten, he knows no fear. LOL @ this, because I thought my dog knew no fear either until I took him tramping last weekend. We had to cross a thin chainlink swingbridge over an extremely high river gorge. "Mr Tough Stafford" ended up being carried across, whimpering, by his kind human friends. (That was kind of off topic, sorry.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 A: LOL @ this, because I thought my dog knew no fear either until I took him tramping last weekend. We had to cross a thin chainlink swingbridge over an extremely high river gorge. "Mr Tough Stafford" ended up being carried across, whimpering, by his kind human friends. K9: its not really off topoc, S&N is about this too.. I walk my dogs on mezz floors... over drums, barrels, hieghts etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 LL: What makes a champion? Sound nerves, right? K9: nerves followed by drives. lol.. I call socialistion, imprinting the dog. Just to confuse the issue regarding working dogs, say a Malinois and a labrador, there is a huge difference in genetic and behavioral traits, as well as the effects from the enviroment. The time frames mentioned by K9 force and others are certainly real. Our darlings dogs sure learn a lot when young, even before 8 weeks of age. Good and bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 LL: I call socialistion, imprinting the dog. K9: I have a different program for imprinting, this is where I teach the dog to utilize its drives etc.. LL: Just to confuse the issue regarding working dogs, say a Malinois and a labrador, there is a huge difference in genetic and behavioral traits, as well as the effects from the enviroment. K9: exactly, however, the socialisation & neutralisation goals should be the same, the steps may be different. LL: Our darlings dogs sure learn a lot when young, even before 8 weeks of age. Good and bad K9: lol, this is why I dont let them run with my older dogs, too much risk of them learning something I dont want. Also, here is an interesting one, when describing one of my programs some one asked me if my dogs offer new behaviours... My answer is this, not often, do I care? no. If a dog offers a behaviour, I will either like it or not, thats a 50/50 ratio... Im not happy with only 50% success.. If I want a new behaviour, I train it, exactly how I want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springergirl Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Just a question K9 - do you work with all breeds of dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 K9: yes of course.... (except Spaniels fofl) just kidding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison1474 Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 My male will recall off a mate btw lol... Point taken but that's just mean... I can just picture it....poor bugga gets all excited then ... "Ohhhh but Dad I was nearly there" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springergirl Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 K9: yes of course.... (except Spaniels fofl) just kidding... wheres that slap head icon!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 2, 2005 Author Share Posted November 2, 2005 K9: Troy took it away after people were constantly using it on me. lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 (edited) Oh My, I leave for a day and already this thread is 4 pages long..... What an intersting topic and interesting to read every ones thoughts on this subject. K9 would you say that some dogs are more "doggy dogs" and others are more "human dogs" regardless of the sort of imprinting we do?? I tend to sway towards genetics somewhat in that I feel this plays some part on the sort of dog you'll end up with. Of course, the socialisation/neutralisation a handler does is very important, but I believe that some dogs, no matter how much we neutralise them may be prone to seeking others of their kind more so than humans. I'd love to know you thoughts on this. Edited coz I carnt spel Edited November 2, 2005 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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