Socialisation & Neutralisation

[haven]

Good point Rusky. Having two dogs, it's simply not feasable for me to stop them from getting enjoyment from eachother and to be honest I wouldn't want to. Thay respect me enough to obey me regardless. Personally I agree with both sides. I see what you're saying Steve, but when i look at my dogs, which are basically just companions and not for any specific purpose, I'm happy for them to find fun in something other than me. I try, where possible to ensure that I control access to that thing, but I'm happy and actually want them to see certain things about the outside world as rewarding. I guess it is where you draw the line.

ETA: were I training for a specific purpose, then perhaps I would be a bit more pedantic.

Edited November 1, 2005 by haven

[yogibear]

Ive always said dogsshould see other people as neutral not good not bad just there and i work toard that with my dogs

I do let my dogs says hi to toher dogs but only for a short persiod on lead long enough to realise they arent a threst but short enough that the interaction is pretty blasaise

I hear people complain about there dogs being well behaved till hey see a certain bred becasuse they have a dog park friend of tat breed dogs leaving the trial ring to say hi to a familiar dog etccoming when clled except when theres a whatever breed about etc or hassling people for food pats because they have allowed poeple to feed their dogs.

My dogs have a ball they play with me we play fetc and chase and rough house with a tug toy they are happy and having fun and by the time they are adults have no real interest in other dogs

Having said that they do get to play with other dogs they have each other and my sisters two to play with in our yard or their yard but we also do a lot of work training together so they ignore each other when out and its more fun to be with me i have all the best toys and treats anyway

I guess it is a personal thing

[FHRP]

So, has anyone done the 'Ruff Love' system with their dogs?

edited for spelling

Edited November 1, 2005 by FHR

[yogibear]

have heard of it but never seen it

[Guest Tess32]

I know someone doing Ruff Love....but it's pretty much impossible for most dog owners because considering the amount of crating required, you'd have to work from home in order for the program to be humane.

That's how it appears, anyway.

I worry about the number of people who follow Ruff Love and don't have enough time to spend with the dog, and thus, end up crating it most of the time.

To me, no competition is worth the price of having to strictly control life like that, *shrug*.

Nat

[FHRP]

Susan briefly talked about Ruff Love and crating when here. She did say a run can be used instead, although he preference was for crating. I think there'd be some disagreement from enthusiasts that you'd need to work from home to crate that much....

[yogibear]

Are we atlking about programs that invole having the dog crated or penned except when working with you a lot of competition people seem to do this i know of one person whose dogs are fantastic to watch work but are kept crated ninety percent of the time Its based on the idea of hostage syndrome isnt it.

Anyway i cant see the point of having a companion that is locked away

[Guest Tess32]

I'm sure there would be disagreement..

But if the average person gets home at say...6.30, then the dog could only have maximum 6 hours of its life uncrated per day, and most people have other things to do besides actively be with their dog for every hour of the night, which means it could turn into 2 hours a day.

I don't support it anyway, but the average 9-5'er would have an incredibly hard time making it work without it bordering on abuse.

Nat

[poodlefan]

This is an interesting subject.

I have to say that in my situation, my dogs spends a fair bit of time in the company of dogs they don't live with. Therefore they need to get on with my friends dogs at least. Only one is really interested in interacting with them and probably only with two of my friends dogs (hi Rogie and Herbie!)

I loathe off lead areas having learned the very lessons K9 and others warn about with my first dog when I was a newbie handler. Fortunately, none of them resulted in permanent 'issues'. My dogs generally only socialise with dogs they know or with dogs of knowledgeable handlers I know. When you consider that dogs are territorial pack animals, that's pretty unsurprising.

Focus is an interesting issue. I find some people expect total focus from their dog in a training situation but rarely give such focus to their dogs outside it - this is particularly the case in mulitple dog households. My view is in order to receive such focus you must give it and this involves spending time with a dog one on one without distractions but not necessarily always in a training environment. Building the bond with your dog is important to achieve focus IMHO - just as important as training particular skills. In a multiple dog household that means spending 'quality time' with each of your dogs as individuals and I make it a practice to do that.

From my observations, dogs who focus hardest on other dogs spend the least time with them or with their owners. My dogs tolerate (well two do) but are basically disinterested in 'strange' dogs. They greet the dogs they know but that's about it.

I agree with the idea that socialisation is a life long, not just a puppy requirement. Indeed, many people argue it is MORE important for an adolescent dog than a baby pup.

[Sonic]

I'm curious to know where you all exercise your dogs where there aren't any other people with their dogs. I have nowhere near me like that so if my dogs are to be exercised we have to accept that other dogs will be around and try to make the best of it.

I envy those people who have exercise areas all to themselves.

[Staranais]

Tess:  Now I assume we're talking really really really reliable, as in, heel through fire kinda reliable and not just "come Rover!" when we're down at the park.

Lol @ Tess, I assumed we were just talking about basic obedience under distraction!

All I meant was that if a dog won't recall away from a distraction (such as other playing dogs), then I don't think he's ready to be off leash in that situation yet. If your dog will happily recall away from other dogs with near perfect reliability, then I really can't see any problem with him playing with other dogs off leash (not that you probably care for my opinion anyway! ).

I don't expect my dog to heel through fire, or do anything else that I couldn't do myself!

FHR:  So, has anyone done the 'Ruff Love' system with their dogs?

What is Ruff Love, exactly? If it's just crating for a few hours before each training session, then it's actually a pretty old idea - I think I saw it in "The Koehler Method".

Or do you mean it involves crating the dog at all times except when he's being trained? That would seem extremely harsh, unless the dog has severe behavioural problems.

[Erny]

What is Ruff Love, exactly? If it's just crating for a few hours before each training session, then it's actually a pretty old idea - I think I saw it in "The Koehler Method".

Or do you mean it involves crating the dog at all times except when he's being trained? That would seem extremely harsh, unless the dog has severe behavioural problems.

Amhailte - I've not heard it called this term before, but I think it's where the dog is penned or crated so that the only pleasure the dog has is his "work". Commonly used, I believe, for scent detector dogs and such like. Not harsh when the dogs train and work alot - those dogs often receive much more attention and time from their owners/trainers than the average "pet dog" owner.

[MonElite]

Long time ago when my dog was a pupp and wanted to play with any dog I was at the beach and there was a woman there with a dog that was just looking at her all the time, fetching ball and couldnt care about the rest of the world. The owner was the world.

I asked the lady if my dog can play with hers, she said no problems, but mine will not play, she doesnt want to play with other dogs, all she wants to do is play with me.

At the time I didnt think much of it, this just brought the memory. I recall how happy that dog was, how focused, how eager etc. It was just to die for.

I guess Im somewhere in between - I love to see how Rex plays with his friends, but I have learned that not every dog has to be his friend.

I absolutly adore when he goes nuts when his dobie girlfriends arrive, I like it just as much as when he goes nuts when he plays with me. And as long as I can call him away from his beloved friends or hated enemies Im happy for him to play.

Apart of allowing him play with dogs he knows and likes I have no intentions of ever arriving in a dog park seeing a group of dogs chasing ball and letting him off leash to mingle with the rest.

Not this dog not any other future dog I might have.

[MaxSpots]

I think the Ruff Love System might be referring to the book

"Ruff Love "

A RELATIONSHIP BUILDING PROGRAM FOR YOU AND YOUR DOG

Written by Susan Garrett

Published by Clean Run Productions

I haven't read this book but I think K9 Force has relationship building exercises and motivation techniques covered.... at the seminar I went to anyway.

(Come on Steve, write a book ! )

[FHRP]

I think the Ruff Love System might be referring to the book

"Ruff Love "

A RELATIONSHIP BUILDING PROGRAM FOR YOU AND YOUR DOG

Written by Susan Garrett

Published by Clean Run Productions

Yep, that's it. It's not just about crating your dog for hours etc. but like the title says, a program.

I did ask K9 force to elaborate on how he did these things with his dogs...

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

Does that mean you never let your dogs play with other dogs at all,

K9: never before 18 months, & never without my supervision after that, I say when it starts & stops. If my dog was becoming too focussed on the other dog, I would stop it.

A:

in case they get hurt or scared?

K9: lol hurt or scared? Im sure you sent some people laughing with that one. In first 18 months yes thats a minor reason, but mostly so as they see me as all the fun they can find.

A':

Or do you just mean you need to thoroughly check out the temperament of the dogs that you let your dog interact with, and make sure you're in control of the situation at all times?

K9: interaction for neutralisation is controlled, I bring a dog that has no interest in mine, wont play, puppy goes to this dog & it gets ignored, puppy is guided back to me & gets praise food etc...

K:

Amen to that K9!

K9: I have used this for all my working dogs but I think these days its important for any dog.

My dogs dont care to play with others that much, people can tell you that they have seen my dog have a little play with theirs, but when I recall my dog, there isnt one millisecond of thought, its compliance right now.

This even happens when people are petting my dog, they will leave & come straight to me if I even look like Im going to issue some praise etc...

There are so many aggressive dogs that are combative, or have poor social skills, that the chances of them destroying your dogs temp are high...

I know, Im treating dogs like this every day...

*******************

Toohey:

Can I present some real life scenarios I have at present?

First one,

K9: kinda snuck that one in already lol...

T:

an 8 year old ex show/breeding bitch who has had little exposure to the real world, is staying with me temporarily at present.

When I take her out in public she becomes very nervous around strange dogs and flies at them. Some dogs she finds less threatening than others and is OK after a tentative sniff. I keep her on a lead and talk to her and tell her she is a good girl as the dogs approach, and she seems to be doing the flying thing less after a couple of weeks of this. Am I managing her correctly?

K9: as she has been kept away for her life, she has a negative value to other dogs, this means that she will require desenstitization.

I cant say if your doing the right thing without seeing you, however, I am careful with verbal praise with these dogs, she could be thinking "Im gonna kill that dog" & you could be saying "good girl"..

I like to praise positive actions...

Toohey:

I am nervous about the fact I won't have her from 8 weeks as I have always believed, and have experienced with my other dog, that the earlier they are socialised and trained in the basics such as toilet training, the better they absorb and remember. Your post states to keep them home during this fear period, so are my concerns unfounded?

K9: no, I would be 1. temp testing the pup art 6-7 or 8 weeks. Then take it home if its what you want, the breeder can take the pup to shows then bring it back to you, you need to bond with the pup 8 - 12 weeks...

I would also be concerned about taking 12 week old to shows, not worth the rsik in my op...

yes there are dozens of people that dop it, many of those end up paying me or someone like me to help them later...

*************************

FHR:

How do you actually do these things?

K9: there are many steps I use but simplyfied, I set someone up to stand there, when my pup goes up to them they will not respond, its like my pup isnt even there, the pup is guided back to me & praised, played with so it see's people - dogs are of no fun, nor anything to be afraid of, but my handler is great...

F:

Your aims are what I have heard from a number of other trainers. I think some of it comes down to what we want from our dogs though.

K9: to a degree yes, but people want/need compliance from the dog under distraction, the easiest way to over come distraction is remove it, my dogs see other dogs as no value, hence they are no distraction...

tbc

[Staranais]

Erny:  Not harsh when the dogs train and work alot - those dogs often receive much more attention and time from their owners/trainers than the average "pet dog" owner.

OK, fair enough - I was thinking of pets, not working animals. In that case, a lot of farmers probably do something quite similar, as lots of farm dogs are kept in their 'boxes' or runs when they are not being 'used'.

K9: lol hurt or scared? Im sure you sent some people laughing with that one.

I'm confused, did I say something wrong? I've met dogs who have been hurt and scared by strange dogs, and they had dog aggression issues afterwards.

[Erny]

Tess:  Now I assume we're talking really really really reliable, as in, heel through fire kinda reliable and not just "come Rover!" when we're down at the park.

IMO, "reliable" means "reliable" and as to whether it is (or not) in the environment in which you have your dog would depend on its training and proofing in that environment. So, a dog is either "reliable" in that particular environment .... or not.

Lol @ Tess ..... All I meant was that if a dog won't recall away from a distraction (such as other playing dogs), then I don't think he's ready to be off leash in that situation yet. 

I agree, Amhailte. And, if I have the correct grasp of K9's view here, a dog failing to recall would also suggest the dog sees the other dogs as higher value than the owner - hence, it has not been "neutralised" to outside distractions such as other dogs.

If the initial training is done is such a manner that the dog is so "neutralised", then later, when the dog is reliable, it wouldn't make alot of difference, as the dog would prefer the company of his owner/trainer, rather than the company of other dogs, although, as a result of socialisation, would be quite accepting of the company of other dogs if it were in that environment.

Naturally - my understanding of this thread and K9's thoughts is open to correction

[poodlefan]

Amhailite:

I'm confused, did I say something wrong? I've met dogs who have been hurt and scared by strange dogs, and they had dog aggression issues afterwards. 

Nah, those of us who've met K9's dogs can't quite reconcile them as hurt or scared by strange dogs. Lets just say they are very confident individuals

Edited November 2, 2005 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

Oh OK, thanks Poodlefan.