laeral Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 OK Ive jumped the gun here a bit, Ive only read the first 8 pages and will get though the rest but thought Id ask a question now. Sorry if its already been covered. When my GSD pup was little, I took her to puppy school etc and took her to meet other dogs, people and different situations in the naive belief that she needed to be socialised. I know better now. It has created ALL kinds of issue with her that I am trying to deal with, namely she sees other things as higher value than me. My particualr problem is with other dogs. She cant leave them alone, just wants to play all the time, it can be extremely hard for her to even acknowledge that I am there some times. Sooo to get to the point, how do you deal with this situation and desensitize a dog so that other dogs hold a neutral value? Can it be done, or is it to late and I should just give up? (kidding) God i wish I had her as a pup again, how different her training would be!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 Sooo to get to the point, how do you deal with this situation and desensitize a dog so that other dogs hold a neutral value? Can it be done, or is it to late and I should just give up? (kidding) K9: I think you mean How do you deal with a dog that holds a high value for other dogs? If so, this is usually done in a balanced training style where we use corrections & rewards for incorrect & correct response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Ok I have read this a while ago but I now have a 7 month old pup. She was heavily socialised as a little pup and started having issues around 17 weeks of age which haven't really gone away. She has great working capability and will happily work and ignore whatever is in the environment in prefence for interacting with me (no fear of taking her off-lead anywhere including high energy environments such as agility etc) but where I seem to have failed is that should some people wish to interact with her then she is very timid. She is fine as long as she doesn't have to say hi but when the go to pat her she cowers and tries to hide. I have been avoiding putting her in such situations and working well within her comfort threshold (which is only a distance of meters). While its not impacting on her life as such I can see I'll have difficulties down the track when it comes to obedience exercises such as stand for exam. So I guess I have achieved having my dog see me as number #1 but not sure I have adequately socialised if that makes sense. Any thoughts on what might have gone wrong, I wonder if in my quest to make me the most important thing in her life I have some how screwed the balance a bit and not properly neutralised the surroundings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 N: So I guess I have achieved having my dog see me as number #1 but not sure I have adequately socialised if that makes sense. Any thoughts on what might have gone wrong, I wonder if in my quest to make me the most important thing in her life I have some how screwed the balance a bit and not properly neutralised the surroundings. K9: Think of the negative side of the scale too, she views strangers approaching with a high negative value, this means that she reacts to them over you. When she is working she is triggered into drive & will remain focussed, its more that when there is no trigger just yet, we dont want people to either be a trigger to pack drive > she wants pats from them or a trigger to avoidance . she wants to avoid them. At the time you mention, sounds like she had a bad experience in fear period one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Yep I can probably pinpoint the event where it started to go wrong relatively minor - a little kid came to pat her and she took off on me. I wasn't sure at the time if it was the dog or the kid but hindsight tells me it was the kid as she is worse with kids then adults. So I guess how do you work at shifting the value to neutral when you have already established a negative trigger without establishing a positive trigger. I will say since the first incident she has been pretty well managed and I have had a few other minor instances but on the whole I have avoided to much rehearsing the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 N: Yep I can probably pinpoint the event where it started to go wrong relatively minor - a little kid came to pat her and she took off on me. K9: this is what fear periods are like, the week before she may have been fine... N: So I guess how do you work at shifting the value to neutral when you have already established a negative trigger without establishing a positive trigger. K9: The thread is sort of about avoiding these pitfalls, no so much about diagnosing & rehabilitating, for that I would need to see her so I could assess the level of fear & how we could design a program to alleviate these feelings. This will need to be done with the use of a child though so causing must be exercised to ensure the safety of the child & the dog doesn't get worse. But teaching a coping strategy can be a helpful foundation that can be used when rehab starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 This is so interesting. This thread has caused me to realise that over the years, with many different breeds, sexes and sizes of dogs, many many dogs, I've never had any issues or problems at all. EXCEPT recently (last 3 or 4 years) with all the pro socialising stuff out there. Very annoying as I have been using these 'new modern' methods, thinking it is the right thing to do, and now have issues.. It's like a giant experiment gone wrong. Why didn't I just stick to what I have always done before??? Because I thought the experts? were right and lost confidence in myself. With other dogs, we have been fairly isolated on properties, they have been with us all the time doing everything and anything we are doing, with no rewards for this, except being with us, no playing with other dogs either. We have always ened up with confident dogs who see us as no. 1 and have no interest in anyone else, to the point of where I have appologised to people for my dogs not responding to their attempts at being friendly with my dogs. My dogs in the past were always fine whether in the city or country. I could just kick myself now as with my current two I have fallen into the social social social trap. *(&*&^%$###$%^@! and now I have to somehow fix what I've done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 M:It's like a giant experiment gone wrong. K9: It is a reasonable theory but very hard to get right in practice,never has been good for obedience reliability though.. M: With other dogs, we have been fairly isolated on properties, they have been with us all the time doing everything and anything we are doing, with no rewards for this, except being with us, no playing with other dogs either. We have always ened up with confident dogs who see us as no. 1 and have no interest in anyone else, to the point of where I have appologised to people for my dogs not responding to their attempts at being friendly with my dogs. My dogs in the past were always fine whether in the city or country. I could just kick myself now as with my current two I have fallen into the social social social trap. *(&*&^%$###$%^@! and now I have to somehow fix what I've done K9: Its all a learning curve, we would never know what was good or bad until we try both I guess, doesn't help you now though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I am finding with my second dog that I am doing things differently to try and compensate for the holes in my older dog. So where one has a weakness the other has a strength. I guess thats what happens though. You keep needing more dogs till you get the balance right . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) M:It's like a giant experiment gone wrong. K9: It is a reasonable theory but very hard to get right in practice,never has been good for obedience reliability though.. M: With other dogs, we have been fairly isolated on properties, they have been with us all the time doing everything and anything we are doing, with no rewards for this, except being with us, no playing with other dogs either. We have always ened up with confident dogs who see us as no. 1 and have no interest in anyone else, to the point of where I have appologised to people for my dogs not responding to their attempts at being friendly with my dogs. My dogs in the past were always fine whether in the city or country. I could just kick myself now as with my current two I have fallen into the social social social trap. *(&*&^%$###$%^@! and now I have to somehow fix what I've done K9: Its all a learning curve, we would never know what was good or bad until we try both I guess, doesn't help you now though... How does the socialisation/neutralisation aspect fit in to though say 20 years ago, when dog laws were less restrictive and there were more neighbourhood mutts around constantly mingling with each other. You said earlier in the thread that dogs that spend a lot of time with other dogs tend to become "too doggy", however in those days wouldn't constant exposure have meant that the value of meeting yet another dog would have become low and in fact the dog would be neutralised to other dogs rather than more doggy? Sort of connected to that, how does it work, neutralising a dog in a multi dog household? (not that I have one but for knowledge purposes). Edited November 6, 2008 by Quickasyoucan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 Q: How does the socialisation/neutralisation aspect fit in to though say 20 years ago, when dog laws were less restrictive and there were more neighbourhood mutts around constantly mingling with each other. You said earlier in the thread that dogs that spend a lot of time with other dogs tend to become "too doggy", however in those days wouldn't constant exposure have meant that the value of meeting yet another dog would have become low and in fact the dog would be neutralised to other dogs rather than more doggy? K9: The dogs in our street didnt pose a great interest as our dogs hadnt been withheld from them behind a locked gate for example, so when they saw them it was daily, there was little excitement from either party which new dogs I guess found un rewarding. Sort of connected to that, how does it work, neutralising a dog in a multi dog household? (not that I have one but for knowledge purposes). K9: Pens, runs, separate yards, thats what we recommend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Q: How does the socialisation/neutralisation aspect fit in to though say 20 years ago, when dog laws were less restrictive and there were more neighbourhood mutts around constantly mingling with each other. You said earlier in the thread that dogs that spend a lot of time with other dogs tend to become "too doggy", however in those days wouldn't constant exposure have meant that the value of meeting yet another dog would have become low and in fact the dog would be neutralised to other dogs rather than more doggy? K9: The dogs in our street didnt pose a great interest as our dogs hadnt been withheld from them behind a locked gate for example, so when they saw them it was daily, there was little excitement from either party which new dogs I guess found un rewarding. Sort of connected to that, how does it work, neutralising a dog in a multi dog household? (not that I have one but for knowledge purposes). K9: Pens, runs, separate yards, thats what we recommend. But how would that not make dogs an object of excitement as in the situation above as in effect you would be witholding other dogs from them. Surely running them together would have the neutralisation effect in the same way as the free roaming dogs of "olden times?". How does one not contradict the other? Not trying to be confontational, just to understand how it works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) Q: But how would that not make dogs an object of excitement as in the situation above as in effect you would be witholding other dogs from them. Surely running them together would have the neutralisation effect in the same way as the free roaming dogs of "olden times?".How does one not contradict the other? Not trying to be confontational, just to understand how it works? K9: locking a dog up & then showing it something exciting is how we build drive, take away the locking up & the things they say aren't that exciting. For example when I was training in Thailand last year, all of the dogs have constant exposure to hundreds of dogs that roam the street, no aggression, no playing & no (zero) interest in each other. Same as when a dog is born into a yard that has chickens running around, they become accustomed to them & dont see the chickens as a trigger to prey drive in many cases. Edited November 6, 2008 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Q: But how would that not make dogs an object of excitement as in the situation above as in effect you would be witholding other dogs from them. Surely running them together would have the neutralisation effect in the same way as the free roaming dogs of "olden times?".How does one not contradict the other? Not trying to be confontational, just to understand how it works? K9: locking a dog up & then showing it something exciting is how we build drive, take away the locking up & the things they say aren't that exciting. For example when I was training in Thailand last year, all of the dogs have constant exposure to hundreds of dogs that roam the street, no aggression, no playing & no (zero) interest in each other. Same as when a dog is born into a yard that has chickens running around, they become accustomed to them & dont see the chickens as a trigger to prey drive in many cases. If you exclude the use of segregation for building drive tho, say for your joe blow average pet owner who just wants a dog that is acceptable in society. As I see it in theory, "socialisation" ie to dogs, chickens, etc, should be the same thing as "neutralisation", that is dogs in thailand (and maybe 20 years ago in Oz) are (were) neutralised through flooding which is intense socialisation really. However, "socialisation" in practice in modern Australia mainly due to the restrictions placed on dog ownership etc, means that exposing your dog to strange dogs has too many upredictables outcomes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 Q: But how would that not make dogs an object of excitement as in the situation above as in effect you would be witholding other dogs from them. Surely running them together would have the neutralisation effect in the same way as the free roaming dogs of "olden times?".How does one not contradict the other? Not trying to be confontational, just to understand how it works? K9: locking a dog up & then showing it something exciting is how we build drive, take away the locking up & the things they say aren't that exciting. For example when I was training in Thailand last year, all of the dogs have constant exposure to hundreds of dogs that roam the street, no aggression, no playing & no (zero) interest in each other. Same as when a dog is born into a yard that has chickens running around, they become accustomed to them & dont see the chickens as a trigger to prey drive in many cases. If you exclude the use of segregation for building drive tho, say for your joe blow average pet owner who just wants a dog that is acceptable in society. As I see it in theory, "socialisation" ie to dogs, chickens, etc, should be the same thing as "neutralisation", that is dogs in thailand (and maybe 20 years ago in Oz) are (were) neutralised through flooding which is intense socialisation really. However, "socialisation" in practice in modern Australia mainly due to the restrictions placed on dog ownership etc, means that exposing your dog to strange dogs has too many upredictables outcomes? K9: more or less, but other than unpredictable outcomes, people are encouraging play which ends up positively charging the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Where the neutralisation programme is a fantastic idea, and if done properly Im sure provides great benefits, it also has to be excercised carefully. I got my bitch at 12 or so weeks. I than (as per this thread) locked her up in my yard as she was in the fear impact period. When I got her out to the big wide world at about 5 months old she was freaked out by the number of people, by the dogs behind fences, kids bikes etc. It took me long time to desensitse her to all sort of things, people mostly, as she would not let strangers examine her, especially man. She never had this problem with people she knew, friends that visited etc. Being a show dog this was totally not on, so I have done fair bit of training with her, for long time. So all in all IMHO there is a fine line between getting a dog neutralised and under socialising it. Especially if you dont get it at 8 weeks and you loose those 4 crucial weeks. As a side note - I have now titled my girl, with her best wins coming from male judges. I had a friend visit me recently that has not seen my girl for about 18 months and he couldnt belive the difference in her, she was all over him in, where 18 months ago she wouldnt go anywhere near him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 M: I got my bitch at 12 or so weeks. I than (as per this thread) locked her up in my yard as she was in the fear impact period. When I got her out to the big wide world at about 5 months old she was freaked out by the number of people, by the dogs behind fences, kids bikes etc. It took me long time to desensitse her to all sort of things, people mostly, as she would not let strangers examine her, especially man. She never had this problem with people she knew, friends that visited etc. Being a show dog this was totally not on, so I have done fair bit of training with her, for long time. So all in all IMHO there is a fine line between getting a dog neutralised and under socialising it. Especially if you dont get it at 8 weeks and you loose those 4 crucial weeks. K9: I wonder how she would be now if you had taken her out, something had gone wrong in that fear period, would she have ever been able to recover? As a side note, threads such as this one aren't written as a training guide, this is offering the concept, so I wouldn't advise anyone just read this thread & carry it out as per what is written here, but seek advice that has been designed for their specific dog. Another thing is a dog that has a nerve issue will be afraid of certain things regardless of how you Socialise. Genetics also play a part, I wonder how the Dam & Sire are? There isn't a fine line in reality, it seems you may have taken the "don't allow your pup to gain positive things from strangers" too literally, when it fact the goal is to neutralise. Neutralise means that if I had a pup that already was afraid of people (had a negative value of men) I would be neutralising, which means dissolve that negative value. I am sure that when carried out correctly, without mistakes it produces a sound, stable reliable animal, it wont cover up nerve issues, genetic issues, previously learned events nor will it cause these fore mentioned problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) Where the neutralisation programme is a fantastic idea, and if done properly Im sure provides great benefits, it also has to be excercised carefully. I'm glad you mentioned this MonElite. I'm often concerned that people hearing of (3rd hand, for example) or even reading of "neutralisation" but not fully understanding it, will take it to extremes. The other end of the pendulum swing, you might say. People need to understand that 'socialisation' to other animals is still required. As to what extent (ie how much "positive" or not) I think depends on the breed of dog (ie genetic potential) as well as individuals within breeds. For the novice dog person, this is where I think it gets tricky for them. Having said that, I am 'neutralising' Mandela to an extent. He had a good deal of socialisation including learning (how) to play with other pups and meet with other adult dogs. I now keep things on an 'even keel' so to speak, and teaching him that being around other dogs does not constitute play time. He's had plenty of exposure to unfamiliar people, but I've controlled that to a good degree so that the interaction whilst being positive is at the same time not particularly 'valuable' to him. People can pat him, but I don't have them 'play' with him. I've probably gone somewhat on the "+" side of socialisation with other dogs though. In part this was because he didn't seem to understand how to appropriately approach/interact with other dogs. So I spent some time working on that. I took him to a show not so long ago ... not participating - just for a look see and socialisation experience. I was amazed at how many people there would automatically assume that they could present their dogs to him; feed him; and pick him up (even without asking). Just because he's a pup? (Well .... entering "young dog" phase now). I think there's some people out there now who think I must be some sort of 'fun police' because I kept saying "no" to the things they wanted to do to and with him. LOL Edited November 6, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 (edited) Do you think though ME, that if you had had her earlier and had done that early exposure, as per the beginning of the thread that the outcome might have been different? How much also would temperament play in this? I have a friend who has a rottie bitch who from the day they brought her home at 8 weeks has been nervy and fearful. They did actually keep her at home until she was about 18 weeks (they were worried about disease), but I would say her temperament has stayed the same. I always questioned whether she was simply born with weak nerves? (I am not suggesting that about your dog BTW as obviously I know nothing about her). Was just food for thought for me. ETA was typing this and missed the next two posts. Edited November 6, 2008 by Quickasyoucan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 E: I'm glad you mentioned this MonElite. I'm often concerned that people hearing of (3rd hand, for example) or even reading of "neutralisation" but not fully understanding it, will take it to extremes. K9: This is true, it is one of the reasons that it can become difficult to offer any advice on any forum for fear of people getting it wrong. There are many forums that as soon as a problem is presented, it is pasted as the standard answer "go see a behaviourist". I am glad were not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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