Socialisation & Neutralisation

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: This is a slightly clearer version of the program

Triangle of Temptation.

This is a behaviour, pack structure & obedience program that takes nearly no time from your day. I created this program after many years of working with dogs.

It’s remarkably effective for gaining control with no force. I have used it with dogs for many years that have been trained to engage a man in combat & would not hesitate to attack me if it were not for this program. I have also used it to rehab extremely fearful dogs that would otherwise not even look at me & I have used it for competition dogs when training in drive.

The bases of this program is to have the dog look to you for guidance & permission to partake in anything you say that the dog can, including food, toys, game etc. Our goal is to have the dog engage self control out of respect for you. This teaches the dog to control its drive & strengthen its mind.

To begin the program we must follow basic training principles, they are the learning phase, the correction phase & the distraction phase.

This means start the training with no other distractions around, no dogs people etc.

The key to starting is to have a food driven dog, if you don’t have a dog with a high food drive, miss the meal before you start or at least reduce it by ¾. Fasting is healthy for dogs.

Now you have a dog that wants the food, this means the dog will have drive for the food. This is a training IN drive program.

Next back tie your dog with a flat buckle collar (non correctional collar) & rope to something solid in your yard. Make sure all other dogs are out of site, we are looking for as low a distraction as possible. Learning is best done under no distraction, we are trying to trigger food drive, not possessiveness, so no other animals.

Prepare the meal inside & this should be done after all higher members have eaten. Your dog will learn, through positive results in this program that being tied out will end in drive satisfaction ie: Positive reinforcement. This is good if you have a dog that whines on a tie out.

At the end of the program you will have a list of things, such as being tied out, long sit stays etc that are all thought of as positive to your dog.

Allow your dog to relax on the back tie, a few minutes is usually enough. Don’t go out to a whining dog.

Now bring out your dogs food, show it to your dog, & begin to walk out in front of your dog, your looking for that moment in distance that your dog looks like the food wasn’t for him or her after all. Basically taking the dog just out of full food drive.

Your trying to trigger the dogs’ high food drives but not so high as to make self control impossible, this would be called drive peak. This distance for some dogs is 2 metres, other 10 metres.

Now you will find our dog looking at the food, possibly trying to get to it, this is what you want.

If the dog is going to hysterics, move the food further away. (This would be an example of full food drive peak)

What it shows is that the dog thinks that he is entitled to the food, but that’s not the case.

Approach your dog & stand at his right hand side, stand quietly whilst the dog gets all excited for the food. Look at your dog & wait. Say nothing.

One of two things will happen, either the dog will go on & on & just stare at the food or he will look at you.

If he doesn’t look, say the dogs name. You want to see the dog look at you, when he/she does be quick to “mark” the look with “yes” then release the dog with an OK (free) command & let the dog loose to eat the food, you should sound very happy.

Many people tell me they already do most of this, do it exactly as described. Missing the verbal marker & the free command will change the outcome…

The next evening you will repeat the same. This exercise is very effective, as you need to feed your dogs anyway, so they may as well learn at the same time.

You are looking to repeat this until when you place the food down, the dog looks at you & not the food. I can have most dogs do this in 2 – 4 days. The dog does not need to give you total attention unless you’re looking for competition level results.

Looking at you means the dog sees you as the person in charge; he has given up staring at the food as he knows that it’s you who say when he can have it, & he can only have it when you say so.

Now its time to add the sit command when you stand next to the dog. As soon as the dog sits, you verbal mark with yes.

Bend down & unleash the dog, give OK command so the dog may eat. Always go inside when you release the dog.

The triangle is formed by drawing a line between you, the dog & the temptation.

When you have a good sit, as that is what is being built here, you can add time, by saying stay & then verbal mark yes after 10 seconds, then 60 seconds & so on.

Remove the back tie & keep it in your hands, if the dog should break the stay, you begin again.

Your looking to increase the time the dog has to stay sitting by 10 seconds per day until you get over three minutes. This is all standing right next to your dog. Think of the achievement so far, your dog will tie out happily; it will sit, stay & give you attention, all in the presence of food.

When three minutes has been gained & you will be certain you can go farther, start to increase the distance between you & the dog, whilst holding the tie out rope.

You should increase this distance by increments of 1 metre.

Up until you did this, the dog was viewing the food (temptation) as unobtainable, & you as unbeatable.

Now by increasing the distance the dog will start to feel the food is obtainable & you just might be beatable.

The long rope will teach the dog very quickly that you are not.

The rule you need to remember is:

Time before distance before distraction.

This is essential for a marked improvement every day.

When you find yourself able to wander inside while the food bowl sits there UN touched by the dog, you’re ready to add distraction.

Allow a second dog now to eat from its own bowl perhaps, remain out of site for a period of time, and change the environment to outside the front gate perhaps. These are just some ways to add distraction.

Build reliability into your dog by working it.

When you’re at this level you will never have a dominance problem with your dog, you can’t have, he looks at you to make the big decisions, like when he can have his treasure.

Feel free to substitute the food for another treasure, such as a treat, ball, toy or an open back door or front gate.

The key is that this gives you control of all the treasures in life, each repetition is positively rewarded at the end by allowing the dog the treasure, when you say he can have it.

This is the generic version of this program, we modify this program many ways to suit different applications, from nervy stressful dogs to rank aggressive dogs to high level competitors.

I use a prey item in the TOT to teach bite work, comp heeling etc etc…

We can tailor this program to suit all applications.

This article is copyright protected (2004) © and can not be used or distributed without K9 force consent. You are, however, allowed to distrubute this link to direct people to this site.

Steve Courtney

Edited March 16, 2006 by K9 Force

[Erny]

Would that also be that years ago dogs were treated more like dogs (lets say harshly) not like family members sleeping on leather lounges? Hence they would see the owners as true alpha?

Sort of, Myszka ... sort of not.

I 'fess up to being a youngster in the "days" K9 speaks of. Back then, as K9 suggests, dogs roamed the streets, meeting up with other dogs, meeting up with people (adults and children alike). More dogs were "outdoor" dogs (at least in my area, they were), but then more people spent more time outdoors around their yards (which were considerably larger than they are today). Kids were always out playing (didn't have computers and computer games back then) and the dogs were always a taken for granted and accepted part of the 'pack'.

"Dogs are dogs" was a more common attitude then (I find) than now. I don't believe it's so much about letting them up on the couch, per se ... I think it's more that if the dog was out of line, he got 'dealt' with. Not harsh in a cruel way, but definately. No mistaking (by the dog) if it did something we didn't like. I'm not sure I remember exactly what we did for every single misdemeanour. If the dog followed you as you left to go to your friend's place (us kids walked everywhere ... for miles), you turned around and TOLD your dog to go home. If it didn't (eg young/new dog), you physically took it back and either got Mum/Dad/Sister/Brother to make sure it didn't follow, or you chained him up (or some such). We didn't "cave in" to our dog's sad, butter wouldn't melt in your mouth, tragic looks. We said what we meant and meant what we said. In otherwords, we set guidelines and made sure the dogs did not set foot outside those guidelines. Because the dogs roamed and entertained themselves during the day (eg while we were at school - in fact, occasionally our lab paid a visit to class and I'd have to leave to take him back home .... great excuse to get out of school!), we didn't have the barking/digging etc. problems that these days often begins out of boredom.

The dog was part of the family ... but the dog was the dog and recognised as lesser than us. (I can't admit to thinking of it, back then, in terms of heirarchy ladder etc.). But don't get me wrong. We all loved our dogs immensley. They were looked after (went to the Vet if something was wrong), bathed etc. etc.

There were days where our lab would lie out on the driveway at the footpath, simply watching the cars go by. As a kid, I'd go sit out with him and watch also. Did I think about the "good association" we had built by doing this with our dog? (Eg to traffic and all other sights and sounds around us). Nope. It was just something we did.

Our dog was allowed inside at "supper" time. But only allowed to go sit on his mat (comprising of sheets of newspaper on top of Mum's new carpet) and lay there. We had a cuppa and two chocolate biscuits each. The dog had 3 dog biscuits. He knew it was time to go to bed (we had an outdoor laundry and that's where his bed was too) when my brother used to put the milk bottles out. He'd hear the bottles 'clink' and go out. One night, the bottles didn't go out because of a milkman strike the next morning. We forgot about our dog. Next morning, there he was - on his mat. Hadn't moved all night (probably counting his blessings for our oversight).

We did all the "I can take your food from your bowl if I want to" stuff, simply because we were the "boss". Had no idea about training or the stuff in dog books these days. We did it at the beginning, and were consistant through to the end.

I could go on .... but can you get the gist? It is, IMO, about consistency. Being boss when behaviour was "not on" - this kept the dog within the guidelines we set. Dog was happy with this arrangement because it was one he could understand. And, of course, he was well socialised to EVERYTHING because he was able to roam the streets and neighbourhoods. Of his own accord, he even learnt to look left and right before crossing the busy road.

[KismetKat]

Thank you K9 - you are a star!

As I have a sit/stay happening, should I go totally back to basics and tie her up? Or is it OK to run with the progress I have to hand?

For instance, as I have been working on the 'come' command one of the things I have been doing is getting her in a sit/stay, putting the food down at some distance, and then calling her to 'come' to me first BEFORE i release her to go to the food.

I had been doing this with my handy assistant (well one of the kids really) who would pick the bowl up if she headed there first, but tonight I did it sans assistant! She started to head to me, then headed to the bowl, I growled no/leave, and called 'come' and she came to me. I think in a muddled sort of way we were kinda getting there - but also agree that going back to total basics can't hurt (if that is what you rec).

Now what happened to that G&T? :D

[NaturallyWild]

Kis:

As I have a sit/stay happening, should I go totally back to basics and tie her up? Or is it OK to run with the progress I have to hand?

T:

Best to start from scratch (like you said 'can't hurt')- particularly seeing you said she headed towards the bowl and had to growl to get her back on track. Going from basics will mean that you will get better control without needing to apply pressure to get what you want (except for the use of a long line to stop her getting what she wants). Once she learns at a good degree of difficulty, getting the kids to then start at an easier level, ie just a look means reward and then build up for them, should be then easier as she already knows how the process works.

Just wondering whether when your kids do it if it's best that you be out of sight (assuming they can handle the lead/tie back) so there is no issue of her looking to you instead of the kids??

I'm sure K9 will correct me if i'm wrong :D .

[KismetKat]

Thanks tim - and yes, always happy to go back to basics. With school hols down here in Vic it is also a good time to truly rope in the kids - whether they like it or not!

As to Erny's post - that is what it was like when I was growing up (and also when I last owned a dog before now. Had dogs till about 14 years, then cats, and now a dog who is 2). Things used to kinda happen naturally, now you have to think things thru. I must admit to being a bit slow on the uptake with some things, but am now doing best at getting "a" into "g" :D

ETA - tim I think with the kids it be best I was out of sight

Edited March 16, 2006 by KismetKat

[NaturallyWild]

I think there is a lot to do with leash aggression as well - mixed signals being given to dogs rather than being able to communicate without our interference. Because legally now dogs are meant to be on leash everywhere outside of home and dog leash parks many people are not aware of how to use a leash without it taking effect. Less of this issue back then.

[KismetKat]

aahhh the bad good old days.

[gemibabe]

Erny

Lives weren't as busy back then as they are today... Family's had more time to be family's... Dogs were very rarely bored...kids played outside with the dog... Kids these days, just don't interact enough with the dogs...video games and computers have taken over... so sad :D

[MonElite]

I will start a subject on my Polish forum re dog agression in the old days v's today. Im interested what will they say.

Where I come from we all lived in apartments, in a big city, all dogs live in the flats with their owners, that is either now or in the past when I was a little girl growing up.

Space for walks was limited as the only availabe area was between blocks of units. I ahve to admit that the blocks were large 10-15 floors and quite far appart, usually few in an area than a school, some shops etc. So only some dogs romed the streets, plus we have winter and snow to take into consideration.

As a girl I was deprived of owning a dog so Id go to another block of flats and borrow a dog to take for a walk. Cyrus the GWP was my buddy and Id take him almost every day. He happily went with me, Id let him off lead and I ahve to admit if he didnt come back Id know that he would go back home, and find his way to the 11th floor whee he lived.

Noone desexed the dogs but I recall that practically everyone took dogs to the club for some training. That is of course in the city where I lived, a different story was in the country.

People still live in those flats and still there is the same amount of space for the dogs to excercise. Plus the law over there is that your dog has to be either on lead OR wearing a muzzle. There are no leash free parks et, every park can be leash free.

Very interesting to see if there is a difference.

[Steve K9Pro]

As I have a sit/stay happening, should I go totally back to basics and tie her up? Or is it OK to run with the progress I have to hand?

K9: It would be worthwhile to start from sctratch just to add a positive to the tie out & make sure the dog figures how to look at you....

For instance, as I have been working on the 'come' command one of the things I have been doing is getting her in a sit/stay, putting the food down at some distance, and then calling her to 'come' to me first BEFORE i release her to go to the food

K9: the above program is the starting point, once you have the dog look at you, comfortable on the tie out, sit, sit stay remove tie out sit stay add time, then distance..

You then work on the recall...

Then you can work on anything else, such as the front, finish, heel work etc etc...

I had been doing this with my handy assistant (well one of the kids really) who would pick the bowl up if she headed there first, but tonight I did it sans assistant! She started to head to me, then headed to the bowl, I growled no/leave, and called 'come' and she came to me. I think in a muddled sort of way we were kinda getting there - but also agree that going back to total basics can't hurt (if that is what you rec).

K9: ok, there is no growling & this means you dont have a good sit stay... Go back to the tie out...

Corrections are in the form of time delay...

This is training in drive not avoidance training...

Now what happened to that G&T?

K9: lol, I think its me who needs the drink...

Once you have the dog complete the excersizes you want, the kids start...

[Rom]

So I guess that S&N is like idiot proofing your dog. When you read all the threads complaining not only about what morons to and around dogs but also what they let their dogs do around your dog, I can certainly see the value in it. It seems to me that its being proactive in ensuring that no matter how pair shaped things might go in the environment, you can always keep your dog safe physically and also protect its temperament.

ETA: When you think about it from that angle there is potentially a greater application in the pet market than what I was originally thinking.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Rom

[Arya]

For some reason I haven't seen this thread before and I haven't read all of it by any means yet but K9 THANK YOU THANK YOU for your first post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some sense in a sometimes senseless world of dog training LOL.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I am lost, what about my first post??

[Arya]

Quote from your first post: Some people also believe that you should teach your dog that some items, such as other dogs have a positive value, in other words, are fun to be around.

I dont agree with this but nor do I stop people from doing it. I just dont do it.

I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valueable, not anything else.

This makes every type of training go so much smoother & faster.

I dont want my dogs tossing up if they would rather come to me or go play with another dog.

This opens up a huge can of worms when it comes to dog parks, meeting friends & letting your dogs play etc.

Allowing your dog to run free with many other dogs is a huge risk, many temperament defects such as unresolved pack issues, rank issues & fear issues can surface in a heart beat, resulting in your dog being attacked or attacking another.

For those who like to see their dogs play with others, they also should know the risks.

I want my dog to see me as #1, there really is no #2. It also removes the possibility of dogs destroying my dogs temperament & my dogs becoming too distracted by other dogs when I need them focussed on me.

This was a very important lesson I had to learn and I think it truly is perhaps the most important lesson anyone can learn in dog training!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: now I get it, I always say, no point in growing weeds, just so you can pull them...

[Poodle wrangler]

As a kid, our miniature poodle was a strictly outside dog, slept in laundry . I've read people post elsewhere on DOL how it would be "cruel" to do this with a people-orientated breed like this ;).

He didn't care- we spent a lot of time outside with him, playing and just hanging out. I have photos of him attending both kid bushwalks and tea parties- very versatile dog ;).

[Troy]

.

[BittyMooPeeb]

my plan is to take my dog everywhere I can when it is around 8 - 14 weeks, I run it up stairs platforms & teach it to ignore people & other dogs etc.

I make noises bang things & so on train all the moves, develop the drives I want.

The next 8 or so weeks I keep the dog at home when its in the first fear period, this enables me to help my pup avoid the pitfalls in public.

A big thankyou to Troy for bumping this thread so that I could rescurrect it and ask some questions

Steve, in your puppy developement sticky, the fear weeks are listed as:

Period of fear 12-16 Weeks

which is later than the fear period mentioned here. So I thought I'd ask which one you think is most likely.

Also, when you keep the pup at home (which I assume is from 17-25 weeks), do you literally mean that they dont leave the house? If so, what do you do about 'outside influences' (eg the Actew inspector barging into your back garden) during this time? Does this also mean that you would not reccomend formal training (puppy classes etc) during this time?

You mentioned that you can tell when your dog is coming out of the period. What do you look for to see when it is going into a fear period and coming out of one?

Gail

[Steve K9Pro]

my plan is to take my dog everywhere I can when it is around 8 - 14 weeks, I run it up stairs platforms & teach it to ignore people & other dogs etc.

I make noises bang things & so on train all the moves, develop the drives I want.

The next 8 or so weeks I keep the dog at home when its in the first fear period, this enables me to help my pup avoid the pitfalls in public.

A big thankyou to Troy for bumping this thread so that I could rescurrect it and ask some questions

Steve, in your puppy developement sticky, the fear weeks are listed as:

Period of fear 12-16 Weeks

which is later than the fear period mentioned here. So I thought I'd ask which one you think is most likely.

K9: the one in the article is correct, here is too, what I am saying is I work with the pup until fear period one, then I stay at home with the pup for 8 weeks.

Also, when you keep the pup at home (which I assume is from 17-25 weeks), do you literally mean that they dont leave the house?

K9: yes, they don't leave here at all. Thats flexible though, but I stay away from things I cant control.

If so, what do you do about 'outside influences' (eg the Actew inspector barging into your back garden) during this time?

K9: I have older dogs that keeps anyone barging into my back yard... lol

Does this also mean that you would not reccomend formal training (puppy classes etc) during this time?

K9: thats correct, I am not a fan of puppy classes.

You mentioned that you can tell when your dog is coming out of the period. What do you look for to see when it is going into a fear period and coming out of one?

K9: Usually when you get your puppy at 8 weeks, by the time you get to first period of fear, you can usually see a reasonable change in the pup, same when it comes out. You might for example drop something on the floor at 11 weeks & the puppy chases it, two weeks later same thing drpped on the floor the puppy runs from it.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: People should also know that, this method of socialisation ( neutralisation ) isn't new to working dog people, many of us have been doing this for years, its in the last say five years that I have felt that due to our environment in Australia, I have been prescribing it to pet owners also.