Agility: Bar Knocking

[Vickie]

Was having a conversation with Hazz...who BTW has some BRAGS from her 1st agility trial on the weekend...about bar knocking & thought I'd start a thread on it to get some input from others...

Here are my thoughts:

Dogs can & should be taught to jump properly. Foundation work should include cavaletti work with different heights, spacing & angles. Also gridwork starting with a single jump, teaching the dog to take off right in front of the jump & to be able to land into your space. Also different spacing/heights/angles, so that the dog cannot predict each jump & learns to judge them.

Bars are often (probably mostly) knocked due to giving a command after the dog has taken off. As the dog raises it's head to listen, rear legs usally drop to take the bar down. Commands and physical cues should be given before the dog takes off in order that it doesn't have to change leading leg while in the air. This also take considerable pressure off their shoulders/front legs and makes for tighter turns as well.

Last jump syndrome (boy did I have heaps of these). I can think of 2 reasons:

1. As a handler you start to anticipate the end of the course & may even start to celebrate your clear run before you're finished. A good trick is to imagine an extra obstacle past the last jump to maintain your (and of course the dogs) focus.

2. The last few jumps are often in a straight line. As the dog is usually faster, they often tend to look back to make sure you're still coming. A couple of tricks, teach a "go on" command that you can give from behind...and sometimes a cross behind works (although should not be necessary if the "go on" is trained) as the dog will naturally turn towards the side you are on, so crossing behind straightens their line back up.

For really flat jumpers who do not know where their hind legs are, bands/scrunchies can be put on their hind legs to teach them to lift their feet. Someone else should be able to expand on this theory more. There are a lot of exercises for rear end awareness.

Training at a different height to competition. Personally I would make the effort as much as possible at training to jump competition height. We only have a few large dogs where I train & they train with the medium dogs. We all mostly make an effort to put the jumps up & down, so they can train at the height they should. It doesn't take long if everyone helps & I know they appreciate it.

That's about it from me, pretty brief, but I'm meant to be doing housework. Hopefully someone will have stuff to add/expand on. Also, the Cleanrun Jumping issue (March 2003?) I think has A LOT of jumping exercises & can still be purchased on the net. It is definitely worth it for anyone having jumping issues.

[Tassie]

Wow - interesting post, Vickie. Agree totally about teaching the dogs (or setting it up so they teach themselves) to jump properly, and figure out their own takeoff. I used the Suzanne Clothier Natual Jumping Method - basically a cavaletti set up (though I confess I didn't work it right through to the end - equipment and space limitations.)

The only time my skinny Minnie little Border Collie bitch pulls bars is if I have mucked her up - just as you say giving an ill-timed command, or being in the wrong place. (Poor little girl - she has to put up with such a Klutz handler.) My mad boy pulls bars when he's out of control - tries to go too fast and jumps too flat. Once he's got rid of the crazies, he jumps beautifully.

The top Border Collie round here has a real bar-pulling problem. I think at the stage he's at, they're not going to re-train him, but I think he would benefit from cavaletti training.

1. As a handler you start to anticipate the end of the course & may even start to celebrate your clear run  before you're finished. A good trick is to imagine an extra obstacle past the last jump to maintain your (and of course the dogs) focus.

Oh yeah - been there - cost us an Open Jumping pass, and ruined a lovely run from her. Actually, she didn't knock a bar - just off coursed, but the solution you suggest would have fixed that. I like the idea of imagining and extra obstacle on the line of the last jump - would certainly make me concentrate harder.

On the question of training height - depends what we're working on. If we're working on a training sequence, I'll usually work on small, since I'm such a challenged handler, we're likely going to have to do the exercise several times! We usually do one run at competition height though.

Hope others with more experience than me pick upon this thread.

Barb

[Maverick]

Hey Vickie.. I have got some good notes from the Susan Garrett seminar if you are interested.

She had some great exercises for jumping.

Maverick scored a 6.5 for his jump technique (which was fantastic as 6.5 I think was the highest score given). The only time he knocks bars is when he is sore or I put him off.

[Hazz]

Definately some things to think about and yep I do have this problem -

'1. As a handler you start to anticipate the end of the course & may even start to celebrate your clear run before you're finished. A good trick is to imagine an extra obstacle past the last jump to maintain your (and of course the dogs) focus. '

But will try the cavelletti training as well and ask if I can jump full height at trainng instead of medium.

I don't think she has a problem jumping the height (see pic below lol) but I do think I may be giving commands at the wrong time as you said above.

edit- forgot photo

Edited October 31, 2005 by Hazz

[Hazz]

Oh I forgot She got her first leg towards her JD, almost fully completed her JD, and a leg for AD if it wasn't for one bar down in each (hence asking about bar knocking) and yes it was near the end or the very last jump

But she got third overall both Sat and Sun so very proud of her.

[Weimlover]

I have no idea about Bar knocking but am very interested in starting Agility

Congratulations hazz I would love to do agility with Bailey eventually.

Edited October 31, 2005 by Weimlover

[sidoney]

Re the last jump. I wonder if there is also an effect of not having a further focus for the dog - as it does the course there is generally something, a further obstacle, for it to focus on ahead (even if it's the wrong thing - but the handler should be driving the dog towards the right thing if doing the job properly). At the end of the course there is no obstacle. This can happen in the course too - not having the next obstacle in view - but I think the handler is usually already driving the dog towards the next obstacle. This ties in with what Vickie said about handling an imaginary next obstacle.

Also, at the end of a course, the dog is often jumping into a visual jumble, of ropes and specators and steward tables and handlers and dogs waiting and so on. Alone, or if the handler concurrently reduces the amount of direction they are giving the dog, it may have an effect. It may be beneficial to do exercises with the dog jumping towards visual jumbles.

[FHRP]

I am lucky that I've never had any real issues with my dogs knocking bars. I was careful not to take it for granted with my younger guy, but as a whole their jumping style rarely knocks bars. They are usually not the most economical jumpers like many of the working breeds are, they clear the jump by a good distance unlike the flatter jumpers you see. I think this means they can be more forgiving of me talking at the wrong time (although I do avoid it).

Re the last jump. I wonder if there is also an effect of not having a further focus for the dog -

Yep, I think this is possible. A local dog here, a super fast bc, is most likely to knock bars when jumping out to 'nothing'. Watching him recently on a course where he knocked three bars, each time was when he had no obstacles in front of him, either a 180 turn back or the end. The handler is aware of the 'issue' and tries not to give any physical or verbal cues while the dog is over the bar in these circumstances...

Also, at the end of a course, the dog is often jumping into a visual jumble, of ropes and specators and steward tables and handlers and dogs waiting and so on.

Yep. Melbourne Royal last year my older guy was clear on the Masters agility course with just the spread to jump. Very unusual for him to knock bars , but yep that sucker came down. Like I've already said, my guys are forgiving jumpers and in normal circumstances I would have never expected that bar to come down. On looking at what he was jumping into, there were two metal bars of fencing about 5m from the last jump and all sorts of people and structures behind that. I am sure this put him off.

My young guy did the cavaletti work, jumping grids and some great jumping exercises with Stacy Perdot before he ever competed. What I found was that the work I had done was very controlled stuff and when we got out on a Novice jumpers course which were fast and flowing, he was hyped and went flat chat and he had to learn how to control his body at speed. Now he's like my older guy and I'm shocked if he pulls a bar, but 99% of the time I can put it down to my handling if he does

Trying to convince people at our club (both inexperienced and experienced) that they actually need to tach a dog to jump correctly is not easy Until they have a problem, of course

[poodlefan]

I agree that handler timing does play an important role in bar knocking.

I think it is also important to consider how fitness, structural issues and soundness can affect jumping. Dogs may be doing the best they can but still take out an occasional (or frequent) bar because they are unfit, sore or simply not built well enough for the job we ask of them.

If bar knocking is occuring frequently and in an experienced dog, I'd be looking to physiology in addition to training. Many dogs trail rather than tuck their back legs and this can lead to bar knocking.

Frankly, training a dog to jump will not overcome some issues. Susan Clothier's article on the subject is thought provoking. It's here:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/jump2.html

[Sayreovi]

This is an interesting thread, thanks

I dont really have a problem with Nova knocking down the bars except when he is tired but that is a given really, i also have to watch my commands as i have to give him a command as soon as he finishes one obstacle so he can focus and ready himself for whatever is coming otherwise he drifts off and screws it up completely haha We will get there

[office bitch]

I have always been interested in this issue of "bar knocking". My border collie, who will turn 9 on Thursday, as a young dog would often knock bars in a trial. He was (and still is a very fast dog) and tended to jump flat when moving at speed. Typical of many border collies he has a long stride, his stride is actually longer than my large dog. Border collies are not natural jumpers, they tend to 'scramble" over obstacles instead of leaping. Interestingly, as he has got older, he rarely knocks a jump. He is still fast and more often than not places or wins, against dogs half his age or less.

I have noticed that many kelpies and koolies tend to fling themselvs over jumps and usually hang a leg or two.

When handlers lead out at the start the dogs usually concentrate on the handler and so misjudge the first jump.

It is very difficult to recreate in training the excitement of a trial and you don't really run with the speed and adrenoline rush which not only causes the dog to have errors but causes handler errors as well.

[sidoney]

These especially are dogs that benefit from jump training basics, eg. gridwork. BTW not all BCs rush, Vickie's girl is fast but has a very nice, clean and accurate jumping style. Vickie, what did you do with her in the way of jump foundation work?

[Vickie]

I just caught up on this, glad to see some great information added...

Maverick, I'd love to see the notes from Susan Garrett

Hazz, she definitely doesn't look like a flat jumper from that pic I bet she doesn't drop bars normally. It was only your 1st trial. If I remember my first one, years ago, we dropped a number of bars. I'm pretty sure it was my boys turning around...wondering who in the hell that woman with the funny shaky voice was giving them commands

Sidoney & FHR, good point about the jumble at the end they are moving towards

Poodlefan, that was a great article, I have read the others but hadn't seen that one. You're right...fitness/structure/injury is a BIG one.

Office Bitch, I've had plenty of first bars down too, for exactly the reasons you said..and a few others. I read a good article on it, I'll try to find it...I think it was a Nancy Gyes one. Your last point about recreating the adrenalin in training is something we (actually that would be me ) are struggling with right now.

Sidoney, we did Julie Daniels gridwork, I have it here, I'll show you. But to be fair I think much of it is just her natural style, as her mum jumps exactly the same. We also waited till she was old enough & rarely train/ed on low heights. I think she will knock bars occasionally, she is very efficient & doesn't waste any space, so sometimes that will probably be misjudged.

Another question for everyone...what do you do if your dog pulls a bar? Do you bring it to their attention, or ignore it?

[Vickie]

I read a good article on it, I'll try to find it...I think it was a Nancy Gyes one.

Well it either wasn't hers, or it's not on their site anymore...

but I found this one

http://www.powerpawsagility.com/articles/BarKnocking.html

[SkyesongTollrz]

>>I've had plenty of first bars down too, for exactly the reasons you said..and a few others. <<

Another big reason for dogs pulling the first bar is handlers setting their dogs up too close to the first bar for the lead out. Allowing the dog several good paces before they are required to take the first jump can usually solve this problem.

>>Another question for everyone...what do you do if your dog pulls a bar? Do you bring it to their attention, or ignore it?<<

With my dog, I ignore it, and then try and work out what I did that caused her to pull a bar. Was my signal too late? too early? wrong angle? wrong cues? too close? too far away? If your dog has learnt the foundations of jumping at an early age, and has been taught a good jumping style, then most knocked bars can usually be blamed on the handler, not the dog.

>>Re the last jump. I wonder if there is also an effect of not having a further focus for the dog - <<

I teach 'push out' as a command. It means keep jumping straight ahead. I only ever use it at the end of a run, when we have a long straight run to the finish. It's not hard to teach (anyone who has done flyball could teach their dogs in about 2 minutes), and means that the dog has a clear directional command. Distance handling is a big part of this and something everyone should be striving for with their dogs (but is a whole other subject which would be a much much longer thread!).

[sidoney]

Another question for everyone...what do you do if your dog pulls a bar? Do you bring it to their attention, or ignore it?

It rarely happens. Try to figure out why it happened. There is usually a clear reason (eg. me speaking to the dog). If it happened more I'd be looking at doing more and maybe different gridwork, taking some video to analyse what's happening, etc.

[Hazz]

Yes I also push 'out' at the end where she runs ahead.

I agree Vickie she doesn't ever take bars at training (unless completely stuffed but I stop her before that point) so I know it would have had alot to do with it being our first trial (and jumping into the crowd of people and dogs at the last jump) and yep my voice was quite high pitched Although the gridwork sounds like fun to teach her to be more aware of her body.

[poodlefan]

Another question for everyone...what do you do if your dog pulls a bar? Do you bring it to their attention, or ignore it?

In training and trialling three dogs, I've only ever had two bars down. Lily skidded on take off at a spread and crashed through it. Darcy has misjudged a distance early in our training and 'chested' a bar off a bar jump.

I find there's nothing economical or flat about the way my dogs jump - usually theres a good 10cm clearance.

I didn't make a fuss either time and the dogs were happy to keep going. I put those bars down in the category of mishaps.

[FHRP]

Another question for everyone...what do you do if your dog pulls a bar? Do you bring it to their attention, or ignore it?

It happens so rarely I ignore it in that run! Like I already said, 99% of the time it would be ahandling fault of mine. If it's in training, what I might do is go back and do that bit again to improve my handling and prevent the bar coming down.

[FHRP]

We also waited till she was old enough & rarely train/ed on low heights.

I will have to think how I will train my next dog in regards to jumping at lower heights when young. I've heard from several trainers now that they basically do ground work and then full height when the dog is old enough, rather than the lower heights gradually coming up to full height. I've so far gradually built up the height and although I can't complain about their jumping style, I do question what it teaches them.

What do other people do? At our club dogs start on the lower height and work up, regardless of age.