Epilepsy?

[A pup]

Our Lab Boy, Arish, is twelve months old.

At the age of five months he had his first seizure.

We were advised to keep an eye on him, as it may very well be a one-off episode.

A few months later, when he was eight months old, he had a series of seizures over a couple of days, and we were told it could be epilepsy and were advised to start him on phenobarbital; which we did. Again a couple of months later he had a series of seizures and his medication was increased to 180mg/day.

Now I find he is very lethargic and fatigued. He is always dozy. I was told that would be a temporary side effect of the drug. But he continues to be like that. How long will this "temporary side-effect" last? The fatigue is another thing. He get very tired easily; for a young Lab, I think probably too easily. I pointed that out to our Vet and he said the dog could just be lazy. Is fatigue a side effect of phenobarbital as well?

Today, less than two months after his medications were adjusted, he has had two seizures; the latest one just now.

I will be contacting the vet in the morning. Meanwhile, I was just wanting people's opinions on this. Could this be epilepsy at all? Should we be lookin for something else?

[Tim'sMum]

Sorry I don't have a dog with Epilepsy but do have a child with it!

I does sound like Epilepsy though. The Vet should have done some neurological testing on your dog. Have they not advised you it is Epilepsy?

With humans, they do tests like an EEG, Cat Scan and MRI to establish there is no other cause like a brain tumour. I am not sure if this is viable with dogs but a neurological check will give some indication if there is another cause.

Just a point about Phenobarbitol...........it does have a sedative effect. Barbituates are the same family of drugs. With humans it is very difficult sometimes to get the medication levels correct and can take a lot of juggling to get to a point where there are no seizures and few side effects. It is probably similiar with dogs.

Puggles has a dog with Epilepsy and could advise your more.........perhaps you could PM her. There are others with pets with Epilepsy.

I hope they can give you more advice.........I imagine how worrying it is for you.

[dogbesotted]

here is an excellent site with good information:

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/

http://forums.petlovers.com/articles/about...e_epilepsy.html

my Brothers poodle has epilepsy. I bought them Caroline Levins book on Canine Epilepsy. They are following the diet etc and for the past years Cocos epilepsy has been well under control. here is link to book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/096...1802968-3216634

[~Anne~]

Hi,

The term 'epilepsy' actually refers to any seizure disorder for which there is no obvious reason (i.e. brain tumour etc).

I have a Pug, Monte, who has epilepsy. He was diagnosed just on 12 months of age.

Monte also continued to have seizures after the pheno was prescribed. We then added another drug to the mix called bromide. Monte still has the occassional seizure and we are always adjusting his meds.

Be patient. Epilepsy is not easy to control. It takes many, many months of adjustment of his medications and lifestyle before it will settle. Expect that your dog will probably always have seizures, but that they will be far less in frequency once you have got him on his optimum level of drugs.

Blood tests need to be taken often, particularly while you are adjusting his med levels. It can take up to three months for the levels of the current amount to settle in his system. Each time you change the levels, expect that it may take this long again to settle. Be warned that the tests can cost up to $200 each time.

We have adjusted and re-adjusted (remember, giving 3/4 of a tab is also an option - most people only think in halves or full tabs) his meds and now have them just right. He also becomes very sleepy if they are too high. Currently his meds are at a level that 'just' covers him and this sees him at his best and not too sleepy, although he still has the occassional seizure. To stop them completely would mean having a dog that is too dosed up and I really don't believe he enjoys being that way just as much as I hate to see him that way.

One last important thing and this I believe is the MOST important thing overall and is more oftent then not overlooked by vets giving advice.

His tabs MUST BE GIVEN EXACTLY 12 HOURS APART.

Timing is crucial, particulary for us where the dog is on the minimum dosage possible. If I fail to give him his meds 12 hours apart and leave it till 13 hours apart, he is at risk of suffering a seizure because the levels of meds in his system drop very rapidly at this point.

I get up at 5.30am EVERY day of the week, 365 days a year to give him his meds and I have either myself or someone else in my family meducate him at 5.30pm EVERY day of the year without fail. On the odd occassion I have slowly altered this time slot but always maintain the 12 hours apart as much as humanly possible.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Puggles

[Staff'n'Toller]

There is catscan and MRI available here in Melbourne now.

Mel.

[A pup]

Thanks for your responses, guys. I'll keep reading up.

ETA: What about the fatigue? Puggles do you find he is very tired? For instance, when I take Arish for a moderate paced walk, in about 20 minutes he appears exhausted. Seems too short a time to tire out a 12 month old Lab.

Edited October 20, 2005 by A pup

[Rascalmyshadow]

We had a poodle with epilepsy he was a little uncoordinated and drowsy to start with but that only lasted a couple of weeks, if the dosage is being changed to a higher amount at frequent intervals he may be taking longer to adjust.

Have you had him tested for diabetes? some times diabetic seizures can be similar to epileptic ones.

[~Anne~]

The sluggishness is the result of the meds. Not much can be done.

There will always be a degree of lethargy regardless while he is on his meds and that is another reaosn why you must persist in adjusting the meds till you get them at optimum levels for him.

Monte still drags his feet when I take him for a walk to the point where he wears the front nails down to nothing and they bleed. I am currently seeking for appropriate foot wear to prevent this.

It sounds bad but Monte is actually a very happy little chap even though he can be a bit lethargic at times.

The bromide and pheno also have side effects - and Monte suffers from almost all of them.

* Increased hunger (.... and Labs being as gutsy as Pugs, you'll have fun with this one! )

* Restlessness (sounds like it goes against the lethargy but in reality it doesn't.... he paces the lounge room looking like he is half asleep... although this mainly happens at night and throughout the night)

* Increased thirst and urination (I always put paper down at night just in case but he doesn't always need it)

* Weakness in the hind legs (when his dose is upped - usually after he has suffered a seizure we up it for a moth or so to get the levels back up and this is when the weakness is really noticeable)

* Clumsiness (when he is on high doses whe have to be careful if he jumps up on the lounge because he is likely to fall when not concentrating)

EFS and to add a pic of Monte... isn't he adorable!

Edited October 20, 2005 by Puggles

[White Shepherd mom]

Hi AP,

I'm so sorry Arish has epilepsy. It is horrible watching your pup go through seizures. My boy, Casper, is epileptic. We are very lucky that his is a mild case. He had 7 seizures over 5 months before the vet suggested we put him on Pb. This was in May and he has been seizure free since.

If I was to mention that my usually hyper, happy dog was lethargic since starting meds and the vet said the dog was lazy, I would be looking for another vet so fast, he would be choking on my dust. Yes, pheno does make a dog lethargic. The initial side effects (lethargy, hunger, thirst, etc) is called ataxia (anyone correct me if I'm wrong!) but he should be able to overcome them. Maybe Arish will be groggy until you find a happy balance with his meds.

One website I MUST recommend is http://www.canine-epilepsy.com. Have a look through and join the group. There are people there who have been fighting this illness for ever and can advise you as to what you should be looking for.

Can I ask what you feed your boy?

[~Anne~]

Theoretically it is not ataxia.

Ataxia is the inability to coordinate movements (limbs)... and in this instance, the limbs are coordinated just slow and clumsy.

Ataxia as a disease is a degenerative conditon of the brain I think that causes similar type symptoms to multiple sclerosis.

[Gamby]

Hello All

My dog, Mister Scotty, Aust Terrier X had a wonderful day at agility when he was 2 years of age. He is now 12. He got two passes in agility in the morning and the afternoon sessions. Before that he would decide himself what he wanted to do.

I took him home and within an hour he had two massive epileptic episodes. I was home by myself and I watched him until they passed. He threw his head up in the air and then his head would come crashing down on the concrete. The noise whas horrendace. I was expecting him to have a broken jaw, his teeth knocked out etc. The fits was so strong. I took him to the Vet and was told it sounded like epilepsy bought on by the excitement of the day.

He had blood test and was put on a course of (can't think of the name of them).......

When he was younger that he would sit and stare of into space. He wasn't on this planet, goodness knows where he went. I've been told that they were the start of his epilepsy and it built up over time.

He has had only one more episode since that day, but still stares every now and again.

Before the tablets Scotty was an over the top type of dog. His recalls were so fast. He was very happy, enjoyed life to the full with his tail never stopping.

Once he started on the tablets he slowed right down. He was lethargic , definately not my Mister Scotty.

The vet told me if Scotty was happy doing agility then continue on with it. Scotty got his AD title. He was so slow compared to what he used to do and he didn't seem to be enjoying it. It was the same with him doing Flyball.

Scotty has been retired now for a number of years, is still going strong and enjoying life just in a slower mode. He is on higher medication now still goes off into his own little world now and again but he's happy and so am I except when he gets a bee in his bonnet and wants to catch mice. There's no mice around but he still wants to get them.

[~Anne~]

He has had only one more episode since that day, but still stares every now and again.

If he is now 12 and has only had one more siezure in the last 10 years I would be cutting him off his meds.

Epilepsy will not kill him unless he is having multiple and or massive siezures.

Dogs that only have one or two episodes every year are usually not put on medication becuase the medication is more trouble then the epilpsy.

I'd be having a talk to your vet and asking why he has been on Meds for this long even though he is not haveing siezures. Usually vets will advise if the dog has been seizure free for 12 months they take them off meds.

[A pup]

White Shepherd mom, I feed him 2/3 raw food and 1/3 dry (Eagle pack Giant/large Breed Puppy).

ETA: Thanks again everyone, for your input.

Edited October 20, 2005 by A pup

[White Shepherd mom]

White Shepherd mom, I feed him 2/3 raw food and 1/3 dry (Eagle pack Giant/large Breed Puppy).

Do you feed him grains? I know a lot of people switched their dogs to raw only and eliminated all grains and have seen a big improvement in their dogs epilepsy - some have even been able to reduce their dogs' meds.

I don't know if Eagle Pack has grains, I assume it does as all other kibble I know of does.

As I said, have a look at the website I mentioned and even join the group so you can ask questions there.

Please let us know how you go.

Good luck!

[Gamby]

[if he is now 12 and has only had one more siezure in the last 10 years I would be cutting him off his meds.

QUOTE]

Thanks for that information.

Scotty had a blood test earlier on this year. The test indicated that he needed his med changed from 1 to 2 tables twice a day.

I have recently changed vet's and have given him Scotty's history.

I will be taking Scotty there next week.

[A pup]

I have been reading the posts of the forum on canine epilepsy. To say the least, I am dumbfounded by what people and their pets are going through!

[White Shepherd mom]

I have been reading the posts of the forum on canine epilepsy. To say the least, I am dumbfounded by what people and their pets are going through!

It is scary, isn't it? I don't know about you but it makes me feel grateful ours is such a mild case of epilepsy. The saddest thing is when a pup you have been reading about for months, goes to the Bridge.

Have you decided what you're going to do next? Are you going to stay with the same vet?

May I ask what the dosage of pheno that you're using is? Just being curious!

[~Anne~]

Thanks for that information.

Scotty had a blood test earlier on this year. The test indicated that he needed his med changed from 1 to 2 tables twice a day.

I have recently changed vet's and have given him Scotty's history.

I will be taking Scotty there next week.

But the change only shows the theurepetic levels of the drug in the dogs system. Meaning that it should be a certain level for the weight of the dog, the type of dog and dependant on the level of seizures i.e. - 20 kg dog should have 'x' level of drug in system to be effective in the control of the seizures.

In this instance there is no seizure activity so I am very surprised they even upped the levels .

Please let us know what the new vet says. I'd be really curious to hear. Is the new vet experienced with epilepsy??

[A pup]

Hi.....he is on 180mg/day ie six tabs a day. He is 29kgs.

As far as the vet is concerned, I am going to stay with him for the time being. I realise that comment was flippant; but as far Arish's Epilepsy goes, he has been very good about explaining the illness and the options available to us. He is quite caring because he rings me after Arish's episodes to find out how he's going etc. Anyway, we'll see.

Edited June 16, 2006 by A pup

[White Shepherd mom]

Has Arish had more seizures since you started posting?

Has your vet done the blood test that checks if the meds are at a therapeutic level?

Just keep your wits about you with your vet and look around if you are having doubts.

Best of luck to you and Arish. Please keep us posted.