Home Brand Cat Food (tinned Fish) For Dogs

[mita]

I was told by a uni vet a long time back, not to feed the dogs commercial cat food. She said the cat food gets a final spray of something which makes it appealing to cats...but which is not so good for dogs.

I know this info doesn't add anything to this thread unless more detail is given for this reason....& documented in some way.

But I've followed her advice & not let our dogs eat the cats' food. I put tuna in springwater (Home Brand) in our dogs' dinners.

Edited October 16, 2005 by mita

[Christina77]

I'm going to retract what I said in my post a few posts up and stop feeding canned food ,

After our walk this morning my dog scoffed the cats left over seafood breakfast (homebrand small can Coles) and was violently 10 minutes later, and vomited for over an hour

She settled down and we kept an eye on her , she's fine now but she scared me !

Wether it was that or not ( DH says he saw the cat throw up outdoors ) I am so over caned food , this is the second time I can relatively confidently say my dog has been ill from canned food.

Makes it hard because sometimes its a great back up and the cat's very fussy.

[petmezz]

hi

the main reasion you shouldn't feed cat food to dogs is that cat food contains higher levals of meat based protean as cats are almost 100% carnivorous, and thrie body requires meat and dosn't use plants unless it is sick, or finds the plant atractive (smell). dogs how ever are omnivours, they require meat, plants, some grain (though comercial diets have way to much grain), and even frute. if a dog is keeped on a high animal protean diet (like cats) it can develop nasty kidney probs, and a host of other things i can't rember at the moment. also the vitamin requirment veary for dogs and cats.

i feed cat food to my dogs around once a week, their favioat is the home brand cat food tuna (smells just like human grade food) mixed with boild rice, vegies and occashionaly some greated frut. they love it, they see me cooking the rice and start dancing and talking.

[Mana]

So on that basis, used as a supplement on barf would be fine... (which is how I'm using it).

But I'm still wondering about mita's comment about the mystery spray....

Christina77 - you sure it couldn't have been something else that made her sick? Maybe she was into some snails or a bit of dead bird or something?

Edited October 16, 2005 by Mana

[espinay2]

dogs how ever are omnivours, they require meat, plants, some grain

I dont agree with your statement. They dont NEED grains, for example, and the studies are there to show that they dont (the only time a dog needs carbohydrates are when they are a lactating bitch). See for example that tome "The Nutrient Requirements of Dogs" or even just the Merck Veternary Manual which states grains as being 'economical' (in a monetary sense) rather than required.

Grain is a historically cheap 'filler' which CAN be used in a dogs diet, but is not something that is biologically required nor, it can be debated, optimal (There are studies on this too in relation to the energy requirements of exercising dogs and how they use proteins, fats and carbohydrates, a diet containing no carbs actually being more optimal in terms of energy supply and use).

Mana, yes, the addition of fish - including the canned cat food type which is whole fish and only fish without any additives (although whole raw is certainly optimal if available) is IMO ok as an addition to a raw diet. Remembering of course that the main features of such a diet are balance and variety over time and everything in moderation.

[mita]

But I'm still wondering about mita's comment about the mystery spray....

The uni vet was commenting on a well-known TV vet showing how to give small breed, fussy-eater dogs, commercial cat food... first warmed in the microwave.

She disagreed strongly....& I vaguely remember it had something to do with a final fatty (?) layer being added which was in line with a cat's nutritional needs?/digestive processes?....but not a dog's.

We had a small mixed breed dog at the time, & I'd asked her about giving it cat food, after seeing the TV vet demonstrate it.

I trusted the uni vet to the extent that I've followed her advice & use the 'human' tuna in springwater for the dogs. She owned cats herself.

[espinay2]

Many commercial dry foods are sprayed on the outside, often with fat etc, as an 'attractant' to make them taste and smell better to the animal. Canned foods would have any additive used for this purpose mixed in as part of the overall product as spraying on top would not be a practical way of attracting given that often only a portion of the can is used. Anything on the surface in the cans that you see is a result of the product 'settling' after the product has been added to the can and it cools. Ie, some parts of the product are 'heavier' and settle to the bottom while some float on the surface (eg often you will see a jelly or liquid layer on top caused by this settling process after canning - you can see it in more than just pet foods).

[petmezz]

hi

espinay2

you are wright that dogs don't need lots of grain, if you re-readwhat i wrote (if you can through the spelling errors ) i did say some grain and in brackets i did say that comercial diets use way to much grain, and your right again, they do use them as fillers. i am well awair of all the studdies and what they say is needed by dogs and cats, i'm educaten on it through other e groups, and hopfully i will be able to purchas the documentation from such studdies, to help me creat my own specially formulated food for my sled dogs. this is some thing i have looked at for a while now, but can't find the cash to spend to get this info i want.

but i still say that dogs need grain, not lots, but they do nees some.

to try and explain how dogs eat grain to all who try and follow a natural feeding plan for your dogs.

lets look at the way they get it naturaly, their is a pack of dogs/wolvs/ferrel dogs they make a kill, some type of grasing animal, or a bird, and after they have killed the animal what part of the animal do they go for first??? 89% of the time they go for the stumic, and what's in it. then they will comsume the rest of the animal provided their not disterbed. so what is in the stumic, well their is seeds (grain), grass and roots, stumic fulid.

so do dogs need grain, i do beleave they do, but their is always going to be bedates on this issue, you should see how mushers talk about % fat %meat %cardo,trace eloments and relat that to performance out put it can be amasing to see the differenc just adding or taking away a small % of those things can have on a dog.

just my thoughts

[Christina77]

Christina77 - you sure it couldn't have been something else that made her sick? Maybe she was into some snails or a bit of dead bird or something?

No I don't think so Mana , I checked everything , she'd only been up 1, 1/2 hours and slept with us that night , was with me at all times and the fact that the cat was also sick although not badly .

She's ok now though , slept for hours , got up and was "hey Play time , whad I miss ?"

[espinay2]

89% of the time they go for the stumic, and what's in it. then they will comsume the rest of the animal provided their not disterbed. so what is in the stumic, well their is seeds (grain), grass and roots, stumic fulid.

Actually this is incorrect, as confirmed by David Mech (considered to be perhaps THE authority on wolves) at a seminar he conducted for us last year on the diet and feeding habits of the wolf from birth to death. He stated emphatically that the wolf does not eat the stomach contents of larger prey (naturally the stomach of prey such as rabbits is consumed as they simply dont bother removing something so small). Certainly one of the first things they go for are internal organs such as heart, liver etc as well as the rump. The stomach however, if eaten, is shaken out to remove the contents. Same goes for the intestines. I have seen this for a fact too, having almost stepped in the piles of stomach contents in the enclosure when working with a captive wolf pack at a conservation facility in the US

As for the contents of the stomach - it should be remembered that domestic grains are nothing like the seeds that will be found in the wild. Wild seeds are smaller and more prone to scatter - domestic grains have ben bred specifically to be larger and to 'hold on' to the plant for easy harvesting. Large ungulates tend to graze firstly on new sweet fresh shoots rather than older coarse grass which contains seed heads. Seed heads, if consumed, will only be consumed in one season and not all year round, so if present in the stomach at all, will only be there at certain times of the year. Most of the contents of the stomach (which as I stated earlier is seldom if ever eaten) is made up primarily of grasses and other leafy green matter.

hopfully i will be able to purchas the documentation from such studdies, to help me creat my own specially formulated food for my sled dogs

In relation to the diet of sled dogs, if you have not already done so, I recommend reading "Hematological and metabolic responses to training in racing sled dogs fed diets containing medium, low, or zero carbohydrate" by DS Kronfeld, EP Hammel, CF Ramberg Jr and HL Dunlap Jr :

"In a 28 week study, 18 racing sled dogs were trained to maximal fitness in 12 weeks, sustained through a racing season of 12 weeks, followed by gradual of training of 4 weeks......On an energy basis, the diets contained protein, fat, and carbohydrate in the proportions of 39:61:0 (diet A), 32:45:23 (diet B), and 28:34:38 (diet C)."

"Dogs on diet A maintained higher serum concentrations of albumin, calcium, magnesium, and free fatty acids during the racing season than did dogs fed diets B or C. They also exhibited the greatest increases in red cell count, hemoglobin concentration, and packed cell volume during training. High values of red cell indices were not sustained through the racing season in dogs fed diet C. In addition to attributes already widely appreciated, viz. a higher energy density an digestibility, the carbohydrate-free, high-fat diet A appeared to confer advantages for prolonged strenuous running in terms of certain metabolic responses to training."

Another useful article is "The Nutritional Requirements of Exercising Dogs" by Richard C. Hill

[petmezz]

well espinay2

you do seem to know you stuff, i still disagree with "dogs do not need grain" but i do have a hard head at times and it dose take a lot of thumping (4 by 2 usually works) to get info in their at times. i will sertanly look at the points you have mentioned, i have always been facinated by what animals eat.

i must say i envy you working with wolves that must have been something you will always remember.

i haven't done much reserch on the wolves (yeh i know i should have since huskys are so much like them) so i have to take what you say as facts as i haven't reserched it enough to make a coment. though a friend that has done studdies on the african hunting dog, have mentioned that the internal organs is what they eat first, as this containds the highest nutrient value for a fast feed. though they did say they eat the stomic i'm now going to re ask them.

i still find it hard to beleave they don't eat the stomic or the intestines as you mentioned?? and if they do eat them they shake out the contence?? is this just with herbovors they have killed or is it different with omnivors and carnivors?? the reasion i ask is their is great documentation of sled dogs fighting over who got to eat the wasts of people so i just asumed they would eat the wasts that where still in the animal they have killed or found. (the above i read in several escmo historial books, and have unfortunatly seen how eagerly they will eat it, never ever let a sled dog lick you )

as for seeds, yes the grains we are using today are different to the wirld ones, hence why people are starting to have reactions to some "human made" grains. but any seed is a grain, weather wild or coltervated. may i ask what do birds commonly eat?? seeds, insects, frute, and necter. is it common for wolves to catch a bird to suplament it in between large kills? so isn't this also a way of eating grain and other things and as you mentioned they are to small to sort out good and bad stuff to eat so they eat it all?

sled dogs

i have herd of those (or simular) but haven't actually read them. i have talked to mushers in Alaska, and they are so interested in things like this if you mention any thing about nutrition for dogs (they usualy don't think about their own) be shour to know how to divert a conversation, it can go on and on and on and on and on and on.

the main studdy i would lick to get is this one, unfortunatly i can only see the contents of the studdy, to see it all i need $265 us dollers (it has come down since last itime i looked), money i don't have at the moment

studdy content

one day hopfully.

oh and back on the grain thing.

can you tell me why my husky insists on eating the bird seed, she has managed to figer out how to open dors, draws untie rope and the only incentive she has is the bird seed that she loves it (yes i have used it as a training treat when i figered out what she was doing). this is bird seed that hasn't come into contact with birds yet, i could understand if it had come into contact with birds, but it hasen't.

maby i just have a werd dog

it is nice talking to a persion who is chalinging what i know. thank you

[espinay2]

i must say i envy you working with wolves that must have been something you will always remember.

I have had the pleasure of working with a number of species of wild canid and I have enjoyed every minute of it

though a friend that has done studdies on the african hunting dog

Remember that the African huinting dog is not Canis Lupus (which the Wolf, Dingo and Domestic Dog are) so diet and behaviour related to diet can be a bit different where they are concerned. The same way people are often quoting the Maned Wolf as an example of a 'dog' that eats vegetable matter when it really isnt a 'wolf' at all!

i still find it hard to beleave they don't eat the stomic or the intestines as you mentioned??

They eat the actual meaty part, but shake out the vegetable matter. If they get any, it is that left clinging after they have shaken it off.

is this just with herbovors they have killed or is it different with omnivors and carnivors??

As a rule they do not eat other canivores etc. Their diet consists almost solely of herbivores

the reasion i ask is their is great documentation of sled dogs fighting over who got to eat the wasts of people

The wastes are mostly a meat or meat byproduct. Not surprising really.

but any seed is a grain, weather wild or coltervated

Technically, yes, but there is a very big difference between feeding domestic rice or wheat or corn and getting maybe a teaspoon to tablespoon of wild grass seed 3 or 4 times in summer only.

is it common for wolves to catch a bird to suplament it in between large kills?

No.

the main studdy i would lick to get is this one

This is one of the ones I was referring to (ie "The Nutrient Requirements of Dogs"), although mine is an earlier edition (I am informed that those parts I was referring to have not changed in the new edition though)

can you tell me why my husky insists on eating the bird seed

Probably the same reason I eat chocolate . dogs are scavengers and survive on a wide range of foods. They are nothing if not adaptable. The key however is whather you are interested in what they can eat to survive, or what makes them thrive.

Edited October 18, 2005 by espinay2

[Mana]

can you tell me why my husky insists on eating the bird seed

Probably the same reason I eat chocolate . dogs are scavengers and survive on a wide range of foods. They are nothing if not adaptable. The key however is whather you are interested in what they can eat to survive, or what makes them thrive.

My lot literally hoover up the bird seed. With the same level of enthusiasm that they show for the occasional bits of kibble that we give the local currawongs and ducks.

I think it's largely pure jealousy! "If they get it, I want it too!"

Needless to say it comes out exactly as it goes in...

I know a dog in Canberra who showed absolutley no interest in vegetables at all - her people couldn't get her to eat them. Then one day she went out to where these people's horse is agisted, and saw the horse being fed carrots, and now she can't get enough of them. Carrots apparently form the major part of her diet now... (no, don't ask me about the nutritional value of that! )

"If the horse gets them, no way I'm not!"

Edited October 19, 2005 by Mana

[petmezz]

the reasion i ask is their is great documentation of sled dogs fighting over who got to eat the wasts of people

The wastes are mostly a meat or meat byproduct.  Not

surprising really.

no not the discarded meat, uneated food tossed away, the stuff that comes out the other end after we have eaten. i know it is gross i hop you whernt eating. but in every historical book they mention this usually regarding sled dogs and their facination with trying to get it.

some dogs will also eat the partially digested plant matter that herbivors disperce. and indeed herdavors eat grain at some point in the year that will occashionoly be eaten by a dog of some sort.

is it common for wolves to catch a bird to suplament it in between large kills?

No.

that is controdictory to what i have read, and learned so far, i understand they work as a pack, but in slow times or if an easy meal is apparent i can not see why they would not kill a bird and eat it. though the alfa pair will probably want the bird?? i know dogs can catch birds and some are more eficent at it then cats, so why would it be different for wolves.

the main studdy i would lick to get is this one

This is one of the ones I was referring to (ie "The Nutrient Requirements of Dogs"), although mine is an earlier edition (I am informed that those parts I was referring to have not changed in the new edition though)

opps i just copied the link from a saved web page (not to my self read the title of things i'm sending a link to)

can you tell me why my husky insists on eating the bird seed

Probably the same reason I eat chocolate  .  dogs are scavengers and survive on a wide range of foods.  They are nothing if not adaptable.  The key however is whather you are interested in what they can eat to survive, or what makes them thrive.

yeh yeh i'll state what i sead to start with, dogs need some grain. though i will change this to dogs require plant matter in their diet, this plant mater can consist of dog friendly (dosn't harm, create scikness, or kill the dog) leafs, stems, aquotic plant life, frut, flowers, some nuts (be very cafall with this and always consult a profecional befor feeding), seeds from safe plants.

dose this sound ok. i bet you come back with another set of interesting facs

Edited October 20, 2005 by petmezz

[espinay2]

the stuff that comes out the other end after we have eaten

As I said, human waste is largely a meat byproduct. Particularly if you are dealing with cultures such as the Inuit who have a largely animal product based diet.

Actually I have seen dogs go crazy for human waste before in various circumstances (including one time while exercising dogs at a roadside layby where obviously someone had stopped during the night to go behind a tree)

that is controdictory to what i have read, and learned so far, i understand they work as a pack

Your question was whether it was common. No, it is not common. This does not mean they may not do it from time to time and occasionally a bird will be eaten (on average maybe one or two per year, if that). Birds however, can be difficult and unpredictable game to catch. The energy expended to catch them is out of proportion to the calories they gain from eating them. It is not efficient therefore to catch and eat birds as a large proportion of their diet and as a result large ungulates tend to make up the greatest proportion (The exception to this rule may be if the pack or individuals are near a rookery or nesting site of birds where eggs and young are easy pickings during nesting season. They may elect to eat these young as 'easy pickings' while they are available. Not a common occurrence by any means, but a possibility. )

Edited to add tha the catching of small game is largely carried out by solitary animals rather than a pack as a necessity if they want to survive as they do not have the ability to catch larger game. Hunting smaller game is just not efficient for a pack - too much energy expended for not enough meat.

Just as an aside, if your reading has included any of the claims made by Farley Mowatt. Remember that his book has been exposed as a work of fiction. He has been called a 'charlatan' by at least one well known and well respected wolf researcher. I can not tell you the damage his false and misleading claims have caused to popular understanding of wolf diet and behaviour.

yeh yeh i'll state what i sead to start with, dogs need some grain.

You are quite free to believe this. Your perogative if you are happy that your understanding of available information leads you to this conclusion.

I, on the other hand, take up the perogative to believe something different based on my own research and practice over the last 10 years

Edited October 20, 2005 by espinay2

[petmezz]

Birds however, can be difficult and unpredictable game to catch.  The energy expended to catch them is out of proportion to the calories they gain from eating them.

i have watched domestic dogs catch wild birds so easily it is amasing. one of the familys dogs (this going back to when i was 14) a red ACD and a true red not these show things, would be lying down on the grass suddanly jump up and catch a bird in mid flight, the way he did it the bird never had a chance he out grow of this (with a little training). so i can't see why a wolves can't do the same, whill not activaly hunting in packs. for such a smart creature it would seem easy to pounce on a bird for an easy meal. but i'm not the one who has studdied this and i will acept what you say. ;) (honastly i do accept i do)

Not a common occurrence by any means, but a possibility

.

i rember seeing this on a documentry, as being reprisented as a yearly accorance, though usualy not by a pack but by individuals, that belong to a pack. do you agree with this??

Edited to add tha the catching of small game is largely carried out by solitary animals rather than a pack as a necessity if they want to survive as they do not have the ability to catch larger game.  Hunting smaller game is just not efficient for a pack - too much energy expended for not enough meat.

and wasn't it these solitary wolves that came to depend on mans discards as a way to survive, eventually turned into the modern dog? thus these dogs/wolves had a higher % of vegitabal matter due to not discarding the insides of the small animal they just killed, and sum time of the year their will be grain in these creatures stumics. and also the gain remains of the setalment they would eat this to wouldn't they?? thus showing that they have eaten grain for hundreds of years, to sustain them selves. (yes i know what makes them survive vers thrive) (i yeald realy )

Just as an aside, if your reading has included any of the claims made by Farley Mowatt.  Remember that his book has been exposed as a work of fiction.  He has been called a 'charlatan' by at least one well known and well respected wolf researcher.  I can not tell you the damage his false and misleading claims have caused to popular understanding of wolf diet and behaviour.

probably has but i don't realy know not good with names and all my books are locked up in storage. though you have convinced me to vertually discard all i know of wolves and re reserch to become more informed on things.

You are quite free to believe this.  Your perogative if you are happy that your understanding of available information leads you to this conclusion.

you have acually convinced me to relook at what i know (you did this after your 2nd responce to me but part of my learning process is to question what i know to what others know size the different opinions up and go and reserch all the avaliabll options that came up in the talk/debate.) i find doing this gives me more ground then reading a book, and ansering a few standared questions. (yes i think i'm a rebal)

I, on the other hand, take up the perogative to believe something different based on my own research and practice over the last 10 years ;)

good on you and thank you for educating such a porly educated persion like me.

;)

edited i know i can't spell but "dird" i couldent leave up their it's been a long day

Edited October 20, 2005 by petmezz