Question: Stalking Pose

[GorgeousAmber]

Just a question:

When my dog (Amber) is walking on leash, and an off-leash dog comes up to her, Amber usually freezes, and if the off-leash dog shows any sign of caution, Amber gets into stalking pose. If they get close enough to touch noses, and the other dog's tail is wagging, Amber will wag her tail happily.

Is there a way to get Amber to relax? I know she's giving off signals to make the off-leash dog nervous. is there a way to break her out of this?

Thanks

[Herr Rottweiler]

What type of dog is she. That will help in the outcome

[GorgeousAmber]

She's a staffy cross. I think maybe with a boxer (she has an underbite).

[Steve K9Pro]

GA:

When my dog (Amber) is walking on leash, and an off-leash dog comes up to her, Amber usually freezes, and if the off-leash dog shows any sign of caution, Amber gets into stalking pose.

K9: your dog is on the theshold of avoidance, she is ready to run if need be.

The job of protecting your dog is yours, your simply allowing off leash dogs to run up to her & see what happens, this could easily make your dog fear aggressive given the signs she is displaying.

I would suggest you stop allowing these dogs to run up to her in this manner, but control the meet so that she regains trust in you.

[GorgeousAmber]

How would I control the meet?

Thanks for your advice K9 Force

[Herr Rottweiler]

K9: your dog is on the theshold of avoidance, she is ready to run if need be.

The job of protecting your dog is yours, your simply allowing off leash dogs to run up to her & see what happens, this could easily make your dog fear aggressive given the signs she is displaying.

I would suggest you stop allowing these dogs to run up to her in this manner, but control the meet so that she regains trust in you.

Good point Steve. Another idicator to back Steve's advise would be to notice her tail. Is it tucked between her legs and wagging wildy or is it raised in the air like a flag pole?

The reason I asked her breed is that some dogs like Kelpies, BC's and ACD's will tend to squat into a stalking like posture.

The body language of any dog is a signature as to its intent. Ears and tail posture will definately help in any future assessments.

[GorgeousAmber]

It's down, but not wagging (pretty sure about this, will have to check next time, god forbid!)

Thanks heaps for your advice.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: controlling the meet = protecting your dog from others, get both dogs on leash, keep them apart for a few minutes & see how they look, if both dogs look excited to get to eachother, tails wagging, allow them to meet on looses leashes, sniffing butts first.

When they have sniffed eachother, keep your leashes at 180 degrees, if something starts unexpectadley, you can just pull your dog away, dont allow leads to tangle.

If your dog or the other dog is showing signs of aggression, or more importantly, avoidance, walk away.

[GorgeousAmber]

Should I call to the other owner/s to get their dogs away? Because we've (my bf and I, and Amber) walked away and been followed by the off-leash dogs, and this gets Amber even more nervous (I imagine because she can't see the other dog)

[Herr Rottweiler]

Should I call to the other owner/s to get their dogs away? Because we've (my bf and I, and Amber) walked away and been followed by the off-leash dogs, and this gets Amber even more nervous (I imagine because she can't see the other dog)

If you don't feel confident with the situation and it isn't a controlled environment, by all means tell them to call their dogs off

[GorgeousAmber]

ok I'll try that then. Thanks to both of you for your help!!

[Erny]

K9: controlling the meet = protecting your dog from others.....

HR & K9 -

I'm a big believer in leadership. Leadership gives me the right to govern, but also the responsibility to protect my 'pack'.

I adopted a 7 yo R.Ridgeback. Came with dog/human and dog/dog aggression issues (avoidance motivated). Cutting a very long story short, I did all the leadership things (amongst other stuff) and things were progressing/improving nicely.

Walking off leash at park and dog approaches (lead dangling, no owner in sight). Rushes my dog. Instintively, I stood between the two, warding off the 'stranger' dog. I command my dog to 'sit' to help control situation. 'Stranger' dog comes back in on different angle ... I ward it off again (and again and again). (My dog holding 'sit' ... so proud of her .) Finally owner turns up and we go on our merry way.

The further improvement in my dog's behaviour ALL ROUND was, since that incident, quite markedly noticeable. My thoughts are that it, in her mind, it 'sealed the deal' in so far as her trust in me as leader was concerned and served to convince her that she could look to me to handle situations she was unsure of, rather than taking matters into her own 'hands' (ie teeth). Didn't make her LIKE the situations any better (which is where desensitisation comes in), but she does defer to and trust my choices. This in turn has served to increase her confidence in general.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Another good tip I didn't make before. You can take an umbrella with you for two reasons

1. In case of bad weather

2. You can open it in front of the other dog to hopefully scare it off. If not you can shield your dog with it. I did a consult with an ederly lady not long ago and she was frightened to take her dog walking for this very reason. Now she takes her brolly along and laughs when she tells me the stories of all the dogs that it shoos away for her.

Something simple

[Erny]

Another good tip I didn't make before. You can take an umbrella with you for two reasons

Good tip, HR. I did not intend in my earlier post to suggest that anyone should stand in the face on an on-coming dog if there is any doubt that you can do so safely. Having an umbrella is a handy idea.

[GorgeousAmber]

Thanks ppl for your replies and helpful advice. I walked Amber last night and this morning on our usual route, but this time I made sure I had myself between her and any houses that have barking dogs. Being the usual route, I knew when they were coming up, so could manouvre myself in between. I must say, I've never seen her so calm on a walk before! She usually gets kind of strutty and skittish, and pulls at the leash, but by then end of the walk this morning, she was like a kid hanging off its mothers apron-strings!

I'll keep practising this, particularly in situations with loose dogs.

Thanks a bunch!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: the problem that most people find with dog aggression is that treating it doesnt fall into the relms of basic dog training, many trainers simply correct what they dont like, & praise what they do.

Attempting to correct fear aggression, as you can see from this thread makes you part of the problem not part of the solution.

The dogs often display aggression as they feel thats what is protecting them, so in theory, the way to correct aggression would be to have the approaching dog attack...

This would teach the fear aggressor that aggression isnt the key & look for something else.

But as that cant be done, we need to take the leadership role.

As a side note, the majority of dogs show strong signs of avoidance before aggression in the early stages, it's when the handler ignores these signs or simply doesnt see them that aggression appears as the dog feels there is no other option.

Then once the dog see's how powerful a tool the aggression is, it calls upon it more & more often.

The end result is that these dogs cant flip in & out of defence drive & rank drive, half the time they become bullies who want to defeat / dominate other dogs as they have learned how to..

Becoming a good leader is done via a number of steps..

As a rule, I advise my clients of a move that I have used many times.

If a strange dog approaches, I take up the slack in the leash & put my fist that holds the leash into the small of my back, this makes the dog get up on his toes as there isnt enough leash, it also puts the dog behind me.

I can face the dog & chase it off. If the dog tries to run around me whilst it's incompetant owner runs the other way, I can spin on the spot & my dog is dragghed with me.

My dogs focus is on keeping the leash from choking him so he doesnt get envolved.

This is what I do with a dg without a lot of training.

One time I was at a river with a friend, & 4 of my GSDs, a JRT came running at us, barking, growling, the usual..

Smallest GSD I had was 42 kg, my male 50kg. All have extensive attack work training. JR prob 8kgs, lol.

We were walking on the river bed about a foot of water, I command them all to drop & stay & walk off to intercept the JR.

I end up catching it & holding it for the owner.

My friend says "why put your dogs in a drop, they could tear that thing apart". The answer is, no dog ever wins a fight, one gets hurt & the other learns he can beat up other dogs.

[GorgeousAmber]

I see what you're saying. the key is to notice the triggers and step in to prevent a bad interaction.

I have noticed with Amber that she can be a bit of a bully. I had diagnosed it as fear aggression, but only when it became extreme circumstances, as in my original post. I wasn't aware that the same factors were causing her to pull on the leash while walking

I remember reading some advice on a website to ensure that I watch the dog as well as the world while walking her, and after last night I think I'll be able to see the early signs of avoidance - change in gait, head turned and focused on something, change in tail position - and take the appropriate steps.

I think this might be a big challenge for us to overcome. We've come a long way since adopting her in January. I'm hoping this will have Amber being the happy dog she is at home, instead of the wild dog she can be on walks and in the park.

Now I just have to educate my bf... (he can get a little distracted with talking while walking...)

Thank you.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: its all good however you will also need to formally work past this, not wait until you see a dog then try & figure it all out.

You will need to get someone to handle the other dog, this all needs to be done in a program.

[patch]

Hi GA,

Check out Turid Rugaas' stuff on calming signals - Amber may actually be displaying quite appropriate behaviour to an approaching dog to say that she's friendly and/or nervous and wants a nice interaction.

Her book 'On Talking Terms with Dogs' is a really easy, interesting read in my opinion. she also has lots of questions and answers on her website www.turidrugaas.com

[Erny]

If a strange dog approaches, I take up the slack in the leash & put my fist that holds the leash into the small of my back, this makes the dog get up on his toes as there isnt enough leash, it also puts the dog behind me.

Steve: Interesting suggestion. I've always worked on the basis of a loose leash (a short one, where necessary, but a loose one) so as not to suggest to the dog (the one we're handling) that there is anything to be concerned about, or, if the dog's already concerned, so as not to contribute and escalate that concern. Hence I'm pondering on the method you described.

Is this to be read as if in a scenario where the dog your handling is, due to its level of aggression, already in a very heightened state and therefore not likely to allow a loose leash to enter the equation?

I'm thinking out loud, so apologies if my query doesn't read very well.

K9:  Then once the dog see's how powerful a tool the aggression is, it calls upon it more & more often.

Yes ... and usually in an escalating fashion

I think that if the exhibition of fear is catagorised in the minds of handlers/owners as "fear aggression", many more people would begin to take appropriate action to alter the dog's beliefs VERY early and actual outward signs of aggression ever being exhibited (and learnt) could be better avoided.