Buster's Mum Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 I have a dog who has not been socialized or trained so for the last month he has been going to training. He gets very excited when other dogs are around and I cannot get his attention. I have been walking him past houses where I know there will be dogs that bark at us through the fence so I have been teaching him to calm down and then he gets a reward. Yesterday after our usual walk we got back to the car and there was another dog in the car park just walking around being friendly, the dogs owner was there and I had no problem with this dog because he was really well behaved. It is an approved off-leash area but for obvious reasons Billy stays on lead. I had just poured some water into his bowl and was trying to get him to have a drink but he was pulling on the lead trying to get to this dog and would not listen to me so I gave him a squirt in the face with the water. That got his attention quick smart and he calmed right down. Now I know I probably shouldn't have done this but why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Sounds like you got the result you were after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Um....well I don't think he'll go to bed having nightmares of water There's nothing really "wrong" as such, though it's probably not the most effective "attention" cue in the world as generally won't be carrying a water bottle around. Are you training an attention cue (some people don't agree with that btw, and think attention is default) like "watch"? Once his attention is back on you, reward him and reward all attention he gives you when you are out and about. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezzyr Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 With my dog I have trained her to "look at me" or "watch". I wont be given the behavior every time (if in a high distraction area) but she does understand and i just make my voice louder (yeah yeah yeah Collies dont like loud noises but raising my voice gets her attention quick smart, she thinks Im gonna kill her LOL) I initially taught her to look at me or watch with the use of food and I still reward her with it sometimes. Providing the water wasnt a high pressure blast from a hose, I dont have a problem with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 why do you think you probably shouldn't have done that? My guess is you know it is a punishment and that you were punishing for what? pulling? attempting to socialise? not watching you? or was it your own frustration at a lack of control in the situation? my guess the latter. I understand your frustrations and it will improve, maybe next time try to get his attention with a bit of tasty nibble stuff which he can't resist and practice attention and recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster's Mum Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 why do you think you probably shouldn't have done that? My guess is you know it is a punishment and that you were punishing for what? pulling? attempting to socialise? not watching you? or was it your own frustration at a lack of control in the situation? my guess the latter. All of the above I am the first to admit I know absolutely nothing but am trying to learn. The biggest thing I have learnt is to stay calm and not make the situation worse. Yes I have started training an attention cue, I learnt this from another post and he is starting to get the hang of it. I have tried letting him near other dogs to say hello and he is fine until one of them barks and sets them all off at which stage I pull him out of there and walk away to show him that's not acceptable behaviour. He is fine with dogs he knows but I admit I am a bit scared to let him near other dogs until I know he will behave himself. Billy will growl at things he is not comfortable with and I was telling him 'NO' and trying to stop him doing it. He did this at the Vets and she told me that if I stop him from growling he will do the next best thing which is to bite. This is why I was concerned about using the water, it might stop the aggression but lead to him doing something else instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Don't stress too much, everyone makes mistakes along the way. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Em & Taco Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I don't believe that throwing some water on his face is a bad thing to do, in fact alot of other people who are inexprienced in training dogs probably would have either given up by now or done something alot more violent. I would say that he knew aswell you we not trying to hurt him by throwing the water at him as you didn't say he growled or anything and proabaly thought "oops, better focus". What type of dogs is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster's Mum Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 I would say that he knew aswell you we not trying to hurt him by throwing the water at him as you didn't say he growled or anything and proabaly thought "oops, better focus". That's exactly what he did, he knew he was in trouble too. He is a Maltese x and is a really lovely affectionate little dog. He is fantastic when there are no distractions and has an absolute rock solid stay but as soon as he sees another dog (or a push bike) he's off. We have only been training for 4 weeks so maybe I am asking too much from him at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 (edited) 4 weeks is a small amount of time for a pooch without previous training. Some pooches pick up training really well, others can take longer. It's taken us 8 months to get Leila to an OK level and it's taken Turbo 2 months to get to that same level. Just keep working on it, once you've mastered an item without distraction, you can start testing it with distraction but expect the learning with distraction to take longer than what it did without, there are so many interesting things out there for dogs to get distracted by......like the wind..... Have you tried siting pooch everytime his distraction wavers? Edited October 5, 2005 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster's Mum Posted October 5, 2005 Author Share Posted October 5, 2005 Have you tried siting pooch everytime his distraction wavers? Yes, I sit him and hold his little bottom down so he can't get up. He is a quick learner but yes there are so many other more interesting things out there. The poor little thing didn't even know what a bone was before I gave him one, he didn't know how to eat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 You will find that very soon he will have eyes only for you, keep it up, be kind and positive for yourself and your dog. He is lucky to have found someone who cares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Billy will growl at things he is not comfortable with and I was telling him 'NO' and trying to stop him doing it. He did this at the Vets and she told me that if I stop him from growling he will do the next best thing which is to bite. This is why I was concerned about using the water, it might stop the aggression but lead to him doing something else instead? Punishment of aggression can possibly lead to an absence of the body language indicative of aggression that the dog would normally display. When you punish the growling, you stop the growling but you don't change the situation at all IE the dog still feels the same about the situation. So yes, your dog may stop growling but still bite. You should also be counter-conditioning your dog so that he starts to feel differently about the situation itself. maybe next time try to get his attention with a bit of tasty nibble stuff which he can't resist and practice attention and recall. The problems I have with this method are 1) you are bribing the dog, not reinforcing the behaviour you want and 2) you are inadvertantly reinforcing the dogs lack of attention IE dog is distracted, out comes a treat, therefore the dog learns to become less attentive. Continue working on the focus command. Once you have word association you can use punishment for lack of compliance if you like and reinforce compliance. Then you can start to proof the command so that your dog will reliably look at you under this kind of distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsdog Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I really like the water spray bottle, even use it for dogs who get distracted at Agility and want to run off to see other dogs. Just have a strategically placed person with water bottle and they soon get the message. They just look at person with bottle and change their minds. I can tell you some really funny stories about water sprays Where did you decide to do your dog training? I think you are somewhere near me. Anyway, keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 That is a good example of what can happen MrsDog. I always explain this to people who are considering such methods of punishment as often people don't think of the future ramifications. Yes it might stop your dog from doing X but it may also make your dog afraid to go in the bathroom, afraid of the hose etc. It depends on whether or not that would be an issue for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsdog Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Sorry Haven, not scaring them - just a light spray from a spray bottle, not a hose. Haven't had any bad results. Anyway just spray in their direction, would have to be very clever to get them! I am probably the softest dog trainer you will come across. No harm done here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Yes it might stop your dog from doing X but it may also make your dog afraid to go in the bathroom, afraid of the hose etc. It depends on whether or not that would be an issue for you. Hi, Sorry to hijak (it's been quite some time since I've been online). Haven I have to disagree with you on the above . We use the water bottle method for numerous problems and have found it be quite effective and have yet to see it cause other issues for the dogs. On the contrary, those that have used one now swear by it as they have been able to gain some control over their dogs for the purpose of teaching new behaviours. The jet stream from a water bottle is different to a body of water found in a bath, lake etc and different again to the the flow of water from a hose. The dog generally does not make the association. Teaching a dog to focus can take some time to achieve properly and novice handlers will tend to place their dogs in situations which both they and their dogs are not ready to deal with. The water bottle spray is the easiest and least harmful method to gain some sort of control when the owner finds themselves in a helpless situation. Don't worry Buster's Mum, you've done nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I used a squirt bottle for Zoe when she was little - she became afraid of spray bottles and drink water bottles. I think enough time has gone by since I have used the method (long since stopped) that she is no longer afraid, but I haven't checked. So it can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 used a squirt bottle for Zoe when she was little - she became afraid of spray bottles and drink water bottles. I think enough time has gone by since I have used the method (long since stopped) that she is no longer afraid, but I haven't checked. So it can happen. Kavik, I stated that the dog would not necessarily be afraid of other forms of water, not the "instrument' used - sorry if I was unclear. However, I would much rather use the spray bottle than use some of other methods I have seen in my time in addition to this, I would rather have a dog be vary of a bottle than of my hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 That is a good example of what can happen MrsDog. I always explain this to people who are considering such methods of punishment as often people don't think of the future ramifications. Yes it might stop your dog from doing X but it may also make your dog afraid to go in the bathroom, afraid of the hose etc. It depends on whether or not that would be an issue for you. Haven, I have 4 dogs, at present, all punished with water bottles at some time and all but one also can take the water spray from the very same bottle as a game as well - even a reward in one case.. None of them are afraid of water, in fact they love it. With all respect, I do not believe that a spray from a water bottle will lead to fear of a bathroom or hose. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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