Hmm Frustrating Problem

[Staranais]

YB: change to a flip finish reckon you'd get a good one use a high hand target so the dog leaps up and then into heel looks very flashy when done well

Lol, have you seen my dog, yogi? He's like a big brick on little stumpy legs - not the most aerodynamic of dog shapes.

I could give it a go, though. Do you generally lure to teach it, or have you got another method?

Erny:  Just work on the finish (without the recall component). Is he taught to finish on an auto stand or sit?

Not quite sure what you mean by an "auto" stand or sit? We do normally practice our finishes just from front position (i.e no recall).

If so, what about taking training back a step and throwing in the "sit" (or "stand") command a moment before he's come around to the "heel" position. Assuming you have compliance, jackpot treat for the position.

You mean tell him to finish, then say "sit" when he gets to heel position? If I do that, he tends to still carry right around to front, then sit quickly, with a big proud sloppy staffy smile.

It's quite frustrating. If I'm rewarding with food, he'll finish very slowly but quite precisely. If I'm using toys, he'll finish enthusiastically and quickly, but loses the precision...

Or have I misunderstood what you're saying.

[yogibear]

I use a hand target the other way is where they move around in a semi circle i have a vid of it somwhere will find it later and send it to you if you like

yb

[Staranais]

Thanks YB, that would be great. He's a bit too short for a hand target, but maybe I could use a target stick?

[Erny]

Pondering .... speaking out loud, again.

There's a clue here. What about using the food to get that 'precise' (albeit slow) finish, a few times, but then rewarding with the toy (even though he expected food). Randomisation. He gets over excited and doesn't finish in the correct position, then release without food or toy reward. Then go back to food. He then gets it right a couple of times, so return to toy.

As said ... thinking out loud (in amongst trying to get some work finished) ... so a bit distracted myself, at the moment.

Targeting could work ... thought of that earlier. Maybe could use combination of these suggestions to achieve your goal. ????

[yogibear]

ok heres a thought

use a target to get position without a reward in sight then randomise your reward as erny said if you are at the trial level then food and toys should be away not seen anyway so that should be easy then he doesnt know which reward he will get when i was training my over the top nut dog i had food and toys hidden in all sorts of places and then when i asked for something a reward appeared

if you have to show the dog a toy or food before you ask for the behaviour then the food or toy is the motivation to do the exercise not the reward does that make sense assuming this is not a beginning dog

[chezzyr]

Chezzyr, is she excited by the reward or by the trick itself? If it's anticipation of the reward which is making her act crazy, maybe give her a less exciting reward?

Its not the reward that gets her going as I never really used food or a specific reward for the action and I still dont - just praise. She just does it on command and goes silly thinking its a great game (which it is). I cant get her to do it "calmer" - she groans/bares teeth/collie grin/tries to "eat" me every time!!!

As I dont envisage myself taking up doggy dancing maybe I shouldnt worry, unless it becomes a specific part of more advanced obedience training

[Staranais]

if you have to show the dog a toy or food before you ask for the behaviour then the food or toy is the motivation to do the exercise not the reward

Yup that's true, and I do hide the reward until I'm ready to give it.

On the other hand, he's not dumb - if I've asked him to do a few things then rewarded him with his tennis ball, he knows the tennis ball is on offer and his enthusiasm sky-rockets when I ask him to do further tasks.

The only problem I can envision with randomisation of toy & food is that when he's hyped about the ball, he just looses interest in food, and it then becomes fairly useless as a reward. Not entirely sure why - perhaps it's a drive thing. If I reward with a ball once, then try to reward with food the next time, he'll ignore the food and keep staring at me oh so hopefully, willing me to produce his ball. :p

There's a clue here. What about using the food to get that 'precise' (albeit slow) finish, a few times, but then rewarding with the toy (even though he expected food). Randomisation. He gets over excited and doesn't finish in the correct position, then release without food or toy reward. Then go back to food. He then gets it right a couple of times, so return to toy.

That's probably the best bet - I'll give it a go, anyway. He'll definately be more interested in food as a reward if it comes before he realises I've got the ball...

Sorry, Kelpiecuddles, for hijacking your thread!

[Steve K9Pro]

When I take Sascha out to do our training she has started rolling over on her back every time we stop moving rolleyes.gif . I have never encouraged this behaviour and she does not get rewarded for it, so far I have ignored it and started moving again and then encouraged when she sits or stands properly. I think it might be a submissive gesture although I have never growled at her as I recognised very early on that she is obne of those dogs that really take things to heart, so we work on positive reinforcement around here. Any ideas?

Erny:

(1) be on the move;

(2) stop;

(3) the instant you stop, say the dog's "marker" word (assumes you've conditioned it to one ... eg "Yes!") or praise;

(4) instantly move on .... praising as you go.

The trick is to make steps numbered (2) and (3) happen so fast one after the other that your dog doesn't get an opportunity to lie down and roll over.

Do several very fast repetitions of this each session - so quick your dog stops trying to roll over because it anticipates that you will be immediately moving on.

Always work to finish your sessions without the dog rolling over.

Give jackpot reward if your dog stops for a whole second without doing the roll over. Then, after a little while, jackpot for 2 seconds, then 4, then 6 etc.

K9: I agree, however, I would also be trying to use a drive, such as prey drive to make this happen a little easier.

You may play ball a little, then walk forward keeping the dogs focus on the ball, have the dog go into the down position & as soon as it does throw the ball & release the dog...

It will be in the dogs best interest to go down fast & not roll over. There will be no rank or submission issues, no fear if the dog is in prey drive..

[kelpiecuddles]

Am could you start teaching the dog to place rather than finish? By which I mean that instead of finishing around the back of your legs he statrs sitting in front of you and then on the command to place simply moves his rear end around to finish sitting at your left. We have started doing this with Sascha dn she finishes much straighter and neater.