kelpiecuddles Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 When I take Sascha out to do our training she has started rolling over on her back every time we stop moving . I have never encouraged this behaviour and she does not get rewarded for it, so far I have ignored it and started moving again and then encouraged when she sits or stands properly. I think it might be a submissive gesture although I have never growled at her as I recognised very early on that she is obne of those dogs that really take things to heart, so we work on positive reinforcement around here. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Since I can't see your dog, I can only assume your thinking that this is a submissive gesture is correct. I've encountered this with the occasional dog and one of a number of methods I've adopted is to :- (1) be on the move; (2) stop; (3) the instant you stop, say the dog's "marker" word (assumes you've conditioned it to one ... eg "Yes!") or praise; (4) instantly move on .... praising as you go. The trick is to make steps numbered (2) and (3) happen so fast one after the other that your dog doesn't get an opportunity to lie down and roll over. Do several very fast repetitions of this each session - so quick your dog stops trying to roll over because it anticipates that you will be immediately moving on. Always work to finish your sessions without the dog rolling over. Give jackpot reward if your dog stops for a whole second without doing the roll over. Then, after a little while, jackpot for 2 seconds, then 4, then 6 etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted October 4, 2005 Author Share Posted October 4, 2005 Hmmm.. I'll give it a try. It's most frustrating because she was doing great until a couple of days ago when this started. Didn't seem to be an obvious trigger ;) . The main problem is that sometimes she will just roll over like this when she actually heeling s o that I have to beckon her to come back into heel. She gets praised for being in heel so it is a bit strange. Wow it's difficult having a dog like this, my other dog is the type that sometimes you have to growl at him to wake him up and then he does what you were asking, so they are complete opposites when it comes to training methods . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Reading your post what came to mind is possible back pain or stomach pain, if it's something that's just started? I'm just throwing things out there.... hard to say without seeing your dog. I use a release command with my guys so as soon as I stop I would release straight away...with my advanced guys I even release mid-heeling, just to mix it up a bit. Mel. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted October 4, 2005 Author Share Posted October 4, 2005 I was just speaking to OH and it seems that he has been giving her lots of belly rubs the last couple of days to the point that she now comes up to him and rolls over on his feet. I think we found the culprit people . So I guess I just need to keep reinforcing when she works properly so that she understands that rolling on back is not accepted during training. Thanks guys I think it was a false alarm tho. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Hehehehe- perhaps your OH should take part in some of the obedience work? He seems to have a knack for training positions quickly.. ;) Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiecuddles Posted October 4, 2005 Author Share Posted October 4, 2005 He needs more training than the dogs. Also he's only good at training the positions that require him to a- Do no work and b- smooch the dogs at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 (edited) I was just speaking to OH and it seems that he has been giving her lots of belly rubs the last couple of days to the point that she now comes up to him and rolls over on his feet. I think we found the culprit people . ;) Never thought to ask you what the OTHER members of your family were doing ..... come to think of it, I didn't know you HAD other members! Tell OH not to despair, though. Get your dog out of this "roll-over" habit first. Then teach the "roll over" command. OH can then enjoy the belly rubbing if she's complied with the "roll over" command..... THEN she'd be getting her tummy scratched on your terms, not hers. Happy tummy tickling! Edited October 4, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 lol we had a similar thing here daughter decides to teach puppy to rollover for trick competition didnt tell me nesxt day i ask for drop and i get these wonderful rollovers instead turns out she was asking for drop then luring the rollover been a clever little thing he got the idea very quickly he thought he was soooo clever when i asked for drop ohh i know this one So daughter is now only allowed to teach tricks are telling me whats shes doind and how she planns to do it yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Haha, same thing has happened here! A few months ago, I was attempting to teach my dog a nice round-the-back finish: he got really good at running round my back, but for the life of me I couldn't get him to understand he had to consistently finish in heel position. A couple of weeks later my boyfriend came to me with a huge proud grin and a very excited dog, and said "Look at us! I've taught the dog to run in circles around and around and around me!" So same as you, Yogi, I had been asking the dog to finish and he had been thinking "I know this one!" and just running round and round and round me... ;) We still haven't got a perfect finish, by the way (any suggestions gratefully accepted)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 We still haven't got a perfect finish, by the way (any suggestions gratefully accepted)! change to a continental finish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 What's the prob with your finish Am? I keep having the problem where he doesn't go back to heel, he slightly forges around and sits facing me. It's getting better now that I'm using hand targetting. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezzyr Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 (edited) My dog does the roll over thing at dog club but I have actually been encouraging it. Problem is if shes sitting for too long (gets bored or hot), she drops then rolls over kicking her legs with big grin on face. I think shes just enjoying rubbing her back in the grass and I give her tummy a scratch too. I dont want to correct or 'punish' her for that. Must add that we have only had her for 6 months and the rolling over thing is fairly new. I would like for her to be able to roll on command one day. She did roll over a couple times when asked to do a drop/stay so am not sure how Im gonna tackle this Edited October 5, 2005 by chezzyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 What's the prob with your finish Am? Problem is whenever my dog's excited he runs right round me to the front again instead of stopping in heel position at my side. If he's extra excited, he does laps round me! ;) My boyfriend (unknown to me) reinforced that behaviour for quite a long time, and now I can't seem to iron out the problem. My dog understands what I'm asking for as he finishes beautifully when he's calm, but when he's excited it's like he just can't help himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Rather a cute problem though huh? Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezzyr Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 I know what you mean about wanting to iron out the behavior LOL For Basic 1 (first level) we had to demonstrate a couple of tricks. I chose shake hands as one (she does one paw and then the other on command). That was fine. The other "trick" is going around me and then through my legs. She can do this quite fast and goes around and around but she gets SOOOO excited, goes through my legs growling/moaning her teeth bared and she looks like a cross between a seal and a crocodile LOL. I simply want her to do it in a calm manner and not trying to eat me with affection. Any tips anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Do the trick when she's tired and only reward the slower/calmer attempts. But now it's self reinforcing probably so....good luck I'd just leave it as a great exercise to get her revved up and in the mood. You could teach a "rev up" and "calm down" sequence too. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 Yes Tess, at least he's enthusiastic! Don't want to curb his enthusiasm by telling him off for his "super fast" finish, so I might have a go using a target stick instead. It's all I can think of at the moment! Though am worried he'll go back to the old behaviour when I fade the stick. Chezzyr, is she excited by the reward or by the trick itself? If it's anticipation of the reward which is making her act crazy, maybe give her a less exciting reward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 change to a flip finish reckon you'd get a good one use a high hand target so the dog leaps up and then into heel looks very flashy when done well yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted October 5, 2005 Share Posted October 5, 2005 What's the prob with your finish Am? Problem is whenever my dog's excited he runs right round me to the front again instead of stopping in heel position at my side. If he's extra excited, he does laps round me! ;) Hhhmm ... pondering. It's great that he's got an enthusiastic recall and I agree you don't want to do anything to discourage that. Thinking out loud ... what about breaking it into two components. (a) The recall component (b) The 'finish' component Just work on the finish (without the recall component). Is he taught to finish on an auto stand or sit? If so, what about taking training back a step and throwing in the "sit" (or "stand") command a moment before he's come around to the "heel" position. Assuming you have compliance, jackpot treat for the position. Use the "10 times" rule (ie you don't move forward from this method until he's worked successfully 10 times in a row ... not neccessarily in the same session, just 10 times in a row). After that, wean off from giving the command to see if you then have "auto sit/stand" happening. Do the "10 x" rule. Then attach a short recall (10x). Then increase the recall distance. Do you think this might help, Amhailte? Or have you already tried something like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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