Have A Training Question....

[pgm]

still don't get it. my dog chews whatever he is allowed to chew, and refrains from chewing what he is not allowed to chew.

As for planning ahead, I thought that is what training is all about - I can hardly smear vicks vapor rub all over a couple of bookcases full of books.

Training him not to chew certain things allows me to give him the run of the house (with back door open) whilst I am out, which he prefers.

[Erny]

PGM:  still don't get it. my dog chews whatever he is allowed to chew, and refrains from chewing what he is not allowed to chew.

I'm not sure I understand where you're not clear, pgm. Perhaps the others can pick this up ... ?

Are you talking about your "trained" dog, or about a pup in the process of being educated about what to chew and what not to chew?

PGM:  As for planning ahead, I thought that is what training is all about - I can hardly smear vicks vapor rub all over a couple of bookcases full of books.

Not talking about the rest of the dog's life. Talking about while the pup is still a pup and in that "gotta chew anything/everything" phase. Talking about prevention and also "self-correction" in the event prevention isn't possible while you're not there.

PGM:  Training him not to chew certain things allows me to give him the run of the house (with back door open) whilst I am out, which he prefers.

This is the goal of the puppy training. IE To have a dog which understands what is and what is not permissable. :p

[Herr Rottweiler]

still don't get it. my dog chews whatever he is allowed to chew, and refrains from chewing what he is not allowed to chew.

As for planning ahead, I thought that is what training is all about - I can hardly smear vicks vapor rub all over a couple of bookcases full of books.

Training him not to chew certain things allows me to give him the run of the house (with back door open) whilst I am out, which he prefers.

This is where you need to use some imagination pgm. Have a towels draped in front of your bookcase or some sort of barries that has a strong vapour rub odour. Hopefully, like most dogs, your dog will see this as unpleasant and saty away from those particular areas.

Dogs generally don't stop the chewing phase until their about 14 months of age when the structure of their skull and their teeth finally settles and maturity starts to creep in, (and hopefully the owner has been proactive enough to take puppy to some training classes)

[pgm]

What i am not understanding Erny is if I train my pup to refrain from chewing by conditioning him to the word 'no' how does that teach him not to chew things when I am not around?

Sure, when he was a pup I left him in the crate when out until such time as I felt he could be trusted - but sooner or later I have to trust that he wont wreck the house when I am out.

How does conditioning him to the word 'no' help in this regard?

[pgm]

Herr Rottweiler, that is a handy idea for my next dog, I will keep it in mind. As I said in my last post, I simply left him in the crate if I had to go out for any length of time - which was no more than an hour or two.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Herr Rottweiler, that is a handy idea for my next dog, I will keep it in mind. As I said in my last post, I simply left him in the crate if I had to go out for any length of time - which was no more than an hour or two.

Nothing wrong with that pgm, I encourage people to teach their dogs to love their crates. I don't even have to say anything to mine, they run in when I open the door and I briskly reward them with a schmacko

[Erny]

What i am not understanding Erny is if I train my pup to refrain from chewing by conditioning him to the word 'no' how does that teach him not to chew things when I am not around?

Sure, when he was a pup I left him in the crate when out until such time as I felt he could be trusted - but sooner or later I have to trust that he wont wreck the house when I am out.

How does conditioning him to the word 'no' help in this regard?

I am going to try to answer, pgm, in two parts (pardon me if I'm putting in stuff you already know, which I suspect you do):

Part 1.

At the beginning, the word "no" is meaningless to the pup. So we condition "no" by pairing the word with some form of aversive.

As the pup (with consistency in training) learns this, the "No" can have the same or similar effect as if it had also received the aversive. Of course, if you don't intermittently pair it with the aversive, the effect of the word on its own will diminish, but it's a handy word to have your dog understand for certain occasions throughout its life.

Part 2.

As the pup hears "no" and receives an aversive each time it goes for your books, but receives a treat/pat/play when its not going for your books, it picks up the pattern of what gets it good things and what doesn't.

If we left the pup full access to your books during this learning phase, the pattern is broken if the pup goes for your books and doesn't receive the "no" and/or aversive. This is why "prevention" when we're not around during this learning phase is important. That, or at least keeping the "pattern" a constant by setting the pup up to deter or even self-correct if you're not there but can't deny access. (HR's example of Vapour Rub).

Over time, it becomes clear to the dog what it can chew to receive good things and what it can't (whether we're around or not), and this becomes an ingrained habit. (Mostly :p)

I'm still not sure if I've answered your question, pgm ... or perhaps HR did in his earlier post?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: forgive me for showing up late to the dance folks, but better late than never (maybe).

Kitty:

so I walked over like we were told and before I got to her, she took off, (< sorry this is my fault for wording this badly frown.gif she only took afew steps as I was standing there went she did it)

I walked after her and did the NO thing, but was that right???

K9: walking over was enough to gain your dogs attention & stop it from doing what it was doing, that would have been enough without the "no". But you did no harm.

Tess:

By the time you caught up with her, she wasn't doing anything wrong. Punishment (like reward) has to be timed correctly, otherwise it's just confusing for the dog.

K9: whilst this is true, you didnt hear her say "no" nor did you se the puppies reaction, so you cant say it was actually seen as punishment by the dog, the pup may have simply blown her off...

Tess:

Puppies chew. I wouldn't be using so much aggressive punishment on a puppy.

K9: what I wouldnt do is rate all puppies as the same, some of mine what bark at you if you yelled at them...

Again, aggression is a strong word here...

Tess:

And most likely, she'll just start chewing stuff when YOU aren't there, because YOU are the punisher.

K9: most likely... ? most likely she will chew any way, she's a puppy, you said it right here... lol..

T:

IMO i wouldnt use any aggression towards a young puppy, and i wouldnt be going back to that club

K9: I certainly wouldnt be hanging the instructors on what you have read here...

When talking about training to new people, I often explain the way I feel aversives should be used, the level of aversive is chosen by the dog, not the trainer.

If a glance will stop the behaviour, thats all thats needed, if it takes a neck scruff, then it does.

T:

Puppy proofing your home would be a good start, use prevention rather then cure.

K9: agreed, however as long as one is aware that is maintenance, not training.

E:

I don't believe there was any real 'physical' punishment (in the sense that many people read it) dished out here, other than to hold the skin on the pup's neck. I think the punishment would be more in the look of the handler's face and the manner in which "No" is expressed.

K9": I believe that dogs should not be punished, but suffer consequences for their actions, the difference between the two is the attitude of the trainer, as Erny has hit on.

T:

There is still no need to grab a puppy while reprimanding it.

K9: there is if your verbal reprimand is getting you no results... Tollers, whilst your own dogs may heed you, some dogs are very hard & determined, & it also has a lot to do with how far into drive the dog is...

T:

Alot of dogs will learn to fear the person doing it,

K9: whilst this can happen, I feel its more likely to happen when the trainer is conveying anger, thus punishing the dog.

T:

if i did that to my pup he would never trust me again

K9: I havent met an animal on the earth that learns a behaviour after one rep, & I feel that if your dog lost trust in you after one, I would say you had no bond to begin with.

T:

It is very harmful to give out that advice without knowing every puppy well and to possibly inexperienced trainers.

K9: That goes for everyone that attempts any type of training whether under guidance or not.

T:

Sure, a bitch may discipline her puppy. But she has an innate sense of timing and force.

K9: I dont feel this is true, how would a bitch learn this?

Tess:

If you put physical reprimands in the hands of someone who hasn't been well versed in the consequences, timing and theory behind punishment - then very often I'd bet you would end up with A) a puppy who learns to be naughty and chew fun stuff in his owner's absence, and/or B) a puppy who associates punishment with his new owner and fears the owner. Even worse, the puppy thinks the approaching owner is going to find his game "fun"...runs to initiates a chase game, and then (forgetting what he's just been chewing on) suddenly finds himself being shaken and told NO. Not a great way to build trust.

K9: I guess there isnt a training program on the earth that doesnt have some degree of fallout, I dont feel though that the outcomes you predict are likely from Kittys action.

Tess:

I am filling in gaps Erny, obviously I wasn't there - BUT I'll probably bet on the fact that going by Kitty's concerns and questions, this was NOT all explained properly.

K9: all gambers loose sometimes. there is a saying "its not what is said, but what is heard".

Tess:

I do find it irresponsible to advise this method to someone inexperienced.

K9: we all started somewhere & if someone didnt trust us with some slightly risky info, where would we be?

Tess:

Use this time to build your friendship

K9": as the pup is not focussing on "building your friendship" but instead, chewing your gear, this is why so many pups hit the pound...

Tess:

your status and a relationship based on mutual trust.

K9:ot mutual at all. By your advice to eliminating the things to chew, you have no trust. trust in you yes,.

tess:

remember to reinforce him as much as possible when he does the right thing. This way when you aren't there, he's got such a history of positive reinforcement behind his special chew toy, that he's very likely to continue chewing it.

K9: not to be argumentative, but using your theory, the pup could see that your not there to reward & chew something else....

Tess:"

Lets be clear - I disagree with Kitty being told to physically grab the puppy in this instance - do you guys?

K9: but she didnt do that?

Its perfectly acceptable if it takes that to sop the pup...

HR:

Nat, as far as grabbing dogs by the scruff for bad behaviour, I personally don't have a problem with it providing that;

A: It's trained properly

B: That the punishment fits the crime

K9: i would add, its not done in anger & thats the level of aversive required to stop the behaviour...

PGM:

I can hardly smear vicks vapor rub all over a couple of bookcases full of books.

K9: true & we must remember that all dogs are different, I have seen some that lick Vicks..

I see many people giving advice here, but something is missing, the people talking about what worked on their one pet dog are talking with a great deal of passion, but (no offence) limited experience.

Others, Haven, Erny, Herr Rottweller (from my guess), to name a few, are speaking of how they have worked many dogs, hundreds, thousands maybe.

They valueable lesson that has been touched on is that no 2 dogs are alike.

Some, through temperament will require more aversives than others, some through drive will need more aversives, others may need almost none...

I let the dog decide, then methodically train through triggers that are not related to me, orthe trainer, the behaviour that is acceptable/desireable..

Edited October 5, 2005 by K9 Force

[Herr Rottweiler]

:p Nicely done. The very last paragraph sealed it nicely

[Eldoop]

Well said K9 Force and if I could add, and I've said it before......what I did worked as Minx hasn't touched it again and at the time, she just sat at the door wagging her tail at me and has no issues at all about what happened, she is training very well and I have no problems with recalls so she is fine :p

Have a great day all

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: your welcome guys.

I find that there are a lot of people concerned with how "humane" the training program sounds, rather than how well it works or doesnt.

Results first, everything comes after those.