Have A Training Question....

[Eldoop]

I have edited this post so the story here is 100% correct.....

I ask this as Minx did this today, she pulls out the bedding of the other dog kennel and I caught her in the act, ( <edited to point out here I say...CAUGHT IN THE ACT!)

so I walked over like we were told and before I got to her, she took off, (< sorry this is my fault for wording this badly she only took afew steps as I was standing there went she did it)

I walked after her and did the NO thing, but was that right???

ofcourse I will ask at training next week, but just wondered if anyone here knew?

IMO I did do the right thing as Minx hasn't touched the bedding since and she is still happy and training is going great guns.

I understand everyone has there own way of training, but my way is working well for Minx ....... *I rest my case* :D

Edited October 5, 2005 by kittyhawklee

[Guest Tess32]

Nope, not really right IMO

By the time you caught up with her, she wasn't doing anything wrong. Punishment (like reward) has to be timed correctly, otherwise it's just confusing for the dog.

Puppies chew. I wouldn't be using so much aggressive punishment on a puppy.

I would try a few things first. Show her what is RIGHT to do, not just what is wrong. Say "NO", and then quickly show her something she SHOULD be chewing on. She's not doing anything naughty, she wasn't born with the knowledge that she shouldn't chew that.

And most likely, she'll just start chewing stuff when YOU aren't there, because YOU are the punisher.

Also, never EVER EVER EVER (hehe) call her to you and then punish her.

Nat

[Sayreovi]

Personally i wouldnt use that method, i like Tess32s suggestion though, thats how i taught my dogs.

IMO i wouldnt use any aggression towards a young puppy, and i wouldnt be going back to that club.

Edited October 3, 2005 by tollersowned

[Erny]

In defence, I'd like to make the following comments:

Firstly, it depends on how you read Kitty's post as to how much "aggression" each reader believes is being recommended to thrust towards the puppy.

Secondly, Tollers, do you not think that a bitch wouldn't use an element of "aggression" (per sei) when a pup is not behaving as it should?

Thirdly, all pups are different and some are more determined than others. Sometimes, the "too soft" approach doesn't cut it, and the pup simply needs something sterner for a clearer message.

What has been commented on is one way of dealing with the situation ... that is, letting the pup know that chewing on the shoe is not on. I'm clarifying "grabbing around the neck" with Kitty at the moment, though.

The thing is, when we have a pup, we should 'puppy proof' our home and remove objects not for their enjoyment out of their reach (ie deny access). If we are remiss here (it is difficult to cover all contingencies), there are a number of things we can do, depending on the problem, its frequency, and at what point we catch the pup.

For example, another method would be, if the pup is just about to chew something it shouldn't, is to startle the pup and when it looks up, call it over. You can then go get it a chew item it's allowed to chew on.

Randomisation of methods is often best, but the ultimate (for young pups) is prevention.

[Sayreovi]

Secondly, Tollers, do you not think that a bitch wouldn't use an element of "aggression" (per sei) when a pup is not behaving as it should?

This is different, it is not the dogs mother telling it off, it is its owner and some dogs could very well learn to fear their owner. I dont physically punish my dogs.

Why is the pup running away? Could well be from fear but also play.

Puppy proofing your home would be a good start, use prevention rather then cure.

Still stand by my original statement that i wouldnt go back to whichever club she is attending

[PAX]

Im with Tollers on this one.

Erny i agree with your alternative method but not in defending what KItty was told by the club.

IMO It is to easy to have bad timimg and scare the pup, where as what you suggested in your last paragraphs is much kinder and would still work without frightening the pup.

My two cents

[Erny]

This is different, it is not the dogs mother telling it off, it is its owner and some dogs could very well learn to fear their owner. I dont physically punish my dogs.

Why is the pup running away? Could well be from fear but also play.

Still stand by my original statement that i wouldnt go back to whichever club she is attending

This would depend on

(a) The intensity of the "aggression" shown to the pup; and

(b) The frequency of the "aggression" shown to the pup (by comparison to good stuff).

If 'prevention' method is activated, and it's only the occasional 'accident' that occurs, if the intensity of the "aggression" (for want of better words) is appropriate and if the pup receives praise and good things for chewing on appropriate chew items, I see it as aiding towards sending a message, in black and white, to the pup about where its advantage lies.

As I mentioned, using ONLY one method is not the answer (IMO) ... it's about using the best method FOR THE MOMENT (not yelling, just emphasising).

Tollersend: I don't believe there was any real 'physical' punishment (in the sense that many people read it) dished out here, other than to hold the skin on the pup's neck. I think the punishment would be more in the look of the handler's face and the manner in which "No" is expressed.

Also, note that Kitty's puppy ran away BEFORE she had the opportunity to enact this method of discouragement. I doubt, therefore, that it could be fear from that (if that's what you were implying).

I'm not trying to convince you towards or away from any club.

[PAX]

. 

Also, note that Kitty's puppy ran away BEFORE she had the opportunity to enact this method of discouragement.  I doubt, therefore, that it could be fear from that (if that's what you were implying)

wasn't she told to "use your body language" this is what i think would of made the pup run away.

Something i wouldn't want my puppy to learn.

Edited October 3, 2005 by PAX

[yogibear]

if your dog chews your shoes then hit yourself on the head for leavuing them out..

and not keeping an eye on the puppy puppy is probably teething and will chew anything left lying around be sure she has things she can chew and then swap for the thing you dont want her to chew in the past three years ive had three puppies through here and not one has had much problem about chewing things why because i keep things up and if they do go to chew on a table etc i pick up a suitable toy walk over and give it to them think of her poor mouth it hurts and chewing is a way of relieving it its not her fault your shoes are just so darn tasty

yb

[Erny]

. 

wasn't she told to "use your body language" this is what i think would of made the pup run away.

Something i wouldn't want my puppy to learn.

Yes, possible, PAX .... but need to clarify as to the context that advice was given, and what 'body language' was suggested to use. I could assume it meant something like "be tough and scarey" ... but that's all it would be - an ASSUMPTION, as this has not been described in the OP's post.

I think the method suggested also might assume that you're not far away from the pup when it's caught in the act of doing something it shouldn't.

I'm just pointing out here the anomalies that can arise out of misunderstanding and misinterpretation, and from people "filling in the gaps" by way of assumption.

[Sayreovi]

This is different, it is not the dogs mother telling it off, it is its owner and some dogs could very well learn to fear their owner. I dont physically punish my dogs.

Why is the pup running away? Could well be from fear but also play.

Still stand by my original statement that i wouldnt go back to whichever club she is attending

This would depend on

(a) The intensity of the "aggression" shown to the pup; and

(b) The frequency of the "aggression" shown to the pup (by comparison to good stuff).

If 'prevention' method is activated, and it's only the occasional 'accident' that occurs, if the intensity of the "aggression" (for want of better words) is appropriate and if the pup receives praise and good things for chewing on appropriate chew items, I see it as aiding towards sending a message, in black and white, to the pup about where its advantage lies.

As I mentioned, using ONLY one method is not the answer (IMO) ... it's about using the best method FOR THE MOMENT (not yelling, just emphasising).

Tollersend: I don't believe there was any real 'physical' punishment (in the sense that many people read it) dished out here, other than to hold the skin on the pup's neck. I think the punishment would be more in the look of the handler's face and the manner in which "No" is expressed.

Also, note that Kitty's puppy ran away BEFORE she had the opportunity to enact this method of discouragement. I doubt, therefore, that it could be fear from that (if that's what you were implying).

I'm not trying to convince you towards or away from any club.

There is still no need to grab a puppy while reprimanding it.

Alot of dogs will learn to fear the person doing it, if i did that to my pup he would never trust me again. It is very harmful to give out that advice without knowing every puppy well and to possibly inexperienced trainers.

I did say that the puppy while running away could been seen as either fear or play.

I would use yogibears suggestion, puppy proof your home, rather prevention then cure, there really is no need to grab your puppy and growl at it, when it is really your fault for leaving them in reach during the teething stage. I would try every other method available to you before using the method the trainer gave you but thats just me.

I have 2 dogs (one still a pup) that dont chew on anything apart from their toys/treats, and i didnt have to use any sort of punishment.

JMO

[Guest Tess32]

Yep, I agree with the others still.

Sure, a bitch may discipline her puppy. But she has an innate sense of timing and force.

Now with all due respect to kitty - if she's not even aware about about the basics of timing and punishment - then she's far from having the same level of skill that a bitch would have.

If you put physical reprimands in the hands of someone who hasn't been well versed in the consequences, timing and theory behind punishment - then very often I'd bet you would end up with A) a puppy who learns to be naughty and chew fun stuff in his owner's absence, and/or B) a puppy who associates punishment with his new owner and fears the owner. Even worse, the puppy thinks the approaching owner is going to find his game "fun"...runs to initiates a chase game, and then (forgetting what he's just been chewing on) suddenly finds himself being shaken and told NO. Not a great way to build trust.

I am filling in gaps Erny, obviously I wasn't there - BUT I'll probably bet on the fact that going by Kitty's concerns and questions, this was NOT all explained properly.

I do find it irresponsible to advise this method to someone inexperienced.

Anyway Kitty - I would spend time reinforcing all his good behaviour and making his own chew toys amazingly wonderful to him. If he IS one of those naughty little puppies who thinks being told off is lotsa fun - then sometimes a time-out in another room is a good idea.

I would not advise physically reprimanding a young pup if you are not very sure you know enough about the effects of punishment. Use this time to build your friendship, your status and a relationship based on mutual trust. Set the rules and and remember to reinforce him as much as possible when he does the right thing. This way when you aren't there, he's got such a history of positive reinforcement behind his special chew toy, that he's very likely to continue chewing it.

Nat

Edited October 3, 2005 by Tess32

[Eldoop]

Hi, thanks everyone for your advice :D but please dont think for a second that I didn't understand what I was told, I do understand fully and IMO did the right thing, and so you know, Minx waged her little tail and still loves me and we had a great walk and training session, so I hope I haven't upset anyone here as I didn't mean too

[Sayreovi]

Hi, thanks everyone for your advice :D but please dont think for a second that I didn't understand what I was told, I do understand fully and IMO did the right thing, and so you know, Minx waged her little tail and still loves me and we had a great walk and training session, so I hope I haven't upset anyone here as I didn't mean too

Didnt upset me.....just because you understood though doesnt mean that other dog owners would have and they could potentially ruin their dogs trust

[Guest Tess32]

No probs kitty - tis your right to do what you want with your dog.

I personally disagree with the method though and so if anyone else is reading they

might see all the viewpoints here and learn something different.

It's all about discussion

Nat

[yogibear]

i agree nat i cant stop you using a certain methood on your dog but lately im certainly seeing an interesting picture of so called modern training practises lol

yb

[Herr Rottweiler]

After reading the advice from various different people here can I ask what training experience you all have with different breeds?

[Erny]

After reading the advice from various different people here can I ask what training experience you all have with different breeds?

Over the years, countless breeds, HR.

Edited October 3, 2005 by Erny

[yogibear]

let me guess your with ADt too

yb

[Herr Rottweiler]

let me guess your with ADt too

yb

Who were you referring to Yogi?