Vern Ryan Dog Behaviourist

[Staff'n'Toller]

Well that's not a bad idea Erny...perhaps we should vote on a topic each week, say a particular behaviour problem, or a 'how would you train this' type of question and have a yak about it...??

Would probably make the training forum a bit more interesting...and if we could have a set of rules such as no flaming, no flaming of training methods, and a keep it sweet principle...all us trainers from different backgrounds could share some theories.

Although as you already know- my background is not that far from yours. I just sidetracked somewhat.

Mel.

[Guest Tess32]

Bugger all that...do you have any collies at ADT?

Nat

[Erny]

StaffordsRule Sounds good to me. I think it's almost impossible to have debate on DOL without flaming, though - if only for the fact that the written word can so easily be misinterpreted by the reader's assumed "tone" of the sentence. But hey, I'm happy to give it a go. (Maybe not tonight .... I'm about to turn in. Early start in the morning.)

Oh - and I don't mind "side tracked" backgrounds at all. Gives more to talk about.

[Erny]

Bugger all that...do you have any collies at ADT?

Presuming you mean Rough Collies, Nat? In fact, we do. The one that first springs to mind is one with behaviour issues to unfamiliar people. A pre-existing behaviour (terror of humans) that was evident right from when the owner purchased him from the breeder. The owner has done a fabulous job, by the sounds. Did all the right things. Sought good advice. Had help from Delta.

It seems the dog has improved from when she first acquired him, but has now plateaued and the owner hasn't been able to progress further. The trainers are presently working with him at ADT and have identified with the owner some of the things she does that she could change to assist towards further improvement in the dog's behaviour.

We have had others, although I have been caught up in other dog training areas, and haven't been to classes for a while, so haven't seen them of late.

[yogibear]

what about setting a time in the chat room to discuss training topics i for one have wanted to in the past but then none of you come in or you run away as soon as i enter lol

[Kelpie-i]

what about setting a time in the chat room to discuss training topics

I would love to discuss various training methods. This could be done as a separate thread for each topic ie. sit, drops, etc and we could all share out techniques and problems encountered etc.

Being trainers/instructors, I'm sure we've all hit snags on occassion with various techniques and it would be good to learn what these were and how they were rectified.

[Rusky]

I would love to discuss various training methods. This could be done as a separate thread for each topic ie. sit, drops, etc and we could all share out techniques and problems encountered etc.

do you mean in this forum or in chat?

I have not been into chat here but if the scroll moves too quickly info and exchange of ideas can be lost.

I find forum is good as it gives a chance to properly read and digest what is being said.

I don't always write what I mean to it gets mixed up but can be corrected in a forum, in chat is harder.

[Kelpie-i]

Well if the forum would be easier then that would be a better option. That way we could keep track of what has been written and readers can backtrack to earlier posts if they wish.

Perhaps a new thread can be started regarding this topic rather than keeping with this one since the OP's question hasn't really been answered.

[wagalot]

i like the sound of this, would like to here what people opinions are about training methods etc.

As a dog trainer i use both reward based and check chain training, i beleave every dog is diffrent, and certain training methods suit certain dogs.

I feel nomatter what kind of method u use it needs to suit the dogs temperment,etc u wouldn't use hash correction chains on a timid or shy dog, or trying to only use food, toy rewards on a aggressive, very strong willed dog or stubbon dog. not to mention a dog that couldn't care less about the food ur got to give them.

but one thing i beleave is PRAISE nomatter what u do the outcome in training should always be injoyable and fun for both dog and handler.

For exsample a dog that will not walk on a lose lead, owner does not have the strengh nor the power or voise to get this dog to listen.

put on a check chain, make sur eu teach the owner the right way of using them and then get stuck into to some training, make the dog unterstand, be strong use the voise etc, but at the end of any command negitive or rewarding always PRAISE the dogs and play with them after training, so they have good outcome and are happy wanting to learn next training session.

At obed club, when i am training my own dogs, people are always saying to me what a smart dog, how do u get him to work so well etc, i tell them it is about the handler.....u have to be confident in ur dog, be happy, excited, full of live, use ur voise if i can't here someone saying goodboy from the other end of the oval, ur not beening loud enough....get ur dogs up and happy, willing and waiting for the next command.

Some thing i notice at dog club, is when the intructor is talking to the hole class people just stand there and let there dog do whatever, barking, wanting to play with other dogs next to them, breaking from sits etc......instead of letting them get out of conrol or get bored use that time wisly, i put my dog into a sit stay, drop stay, stand stay or practise healing around me on the spot or just practise watch me...any thing to keep them busy and making them realize that they are working which means actully that for the hole hr ur dog should be listening, obaying and injoying working for u. if there not u a simply not keeping them enfuziastc(sp?) about training.

and after the training session is over, play with ur dogs make a huge fuss of them.

I get my young boy to give me a high five for a job well done and jumps into my arms.....he love it and always injoys his training sessions.

I hartly ever see any one do this with there dogs after training they just all walk to the club house and head for home, and people wonder why they can,t get there dogs to injoy and obey in dog training.

sorry for the long post, i have a bad habbit

cheers sam

[Kelpie-i]

make the dog unterstand, be strong use the voise etc, but at the end of any command negitive or rewarding always PRAISE the dogs

Hi Wagalot

This is interesting. There are some who don't advocate praising after correction. I, for one, do as I feel this teaches the dog to cope with corrections resulting in them bouncing back quicker. The level of praise used is low key and is limited to pats or verbal only- no treats or games.

I've seen a technique whereby you correct (physical) and treat simultaneously which results in even quicker compliance along with eagerness. I certainly wouldn't use this on all dogs but the result was astounding.

I'd been interested in learning what others think of praise immediately after correction.

[Steve K9Pro]

I feel nomatter what kind of method u use it needs to suit the dogs temperment,etc u wouldn't use hash correction chains on a timid or shy dog

K9: there is no such thing as a harsh correction collar, many timid( weak nerved) dogs gain confidence in some circumstances & need collars such as prongs.

Harshness comes from how you use it.

K:

There are some who don't advocate praising after correction. I, for one, do as I feel this teaches the dog to cope with corrections resulting in them bouncing back quicker.

K9: there are many facets to this statement, one is that a very hard dog will recover (genetically) from a correction without praise, but a softer dog will not or at least will take longer.

Praise is free, no need to restrict it.

Dogs training in drive work best with the simple rule, drive - compulsion - drive.

without this model you will have a dog that has turned on nerves often in drive training.

K:

I've seen a technique whereby you correct (physical) and treat simultaneously which results in even quicker compliance along with eagerness.

K9: this also turns on the dogs nerves, it only suitable if you understand the nerves of the dog

[Kelpie-i]

Hi K9

Unfortunately prong collars are banned here in Melbourne, so these are out of the question when training companion obedience in a school. We have to make do with correction chains, margtingales etc.

K9: there are many facets to this statement, one is that a very hard dog will recover (genetically) from a correction without praise, but a softer dog will not or at least will take longer

I would be inclined to praise after correction with both types of dogs. I have seen no harm in doing so especially with a softer dog. In my experience they recover quicker and don't end up working like robots or look as though they are trying to forever beat a correction. This I find rarely happens though when training in prey.

Dogs training in drive work best with the simple rule, drive - compulsion - drive.

Ours is a little different ie. drive-lure-drive. We still achieve the desired results. Again, training for companion obedience, some handlers are reluctant to use compulsion therefore we don't use it - only on rare occasions.

K9: this also turns on the dogs nerves, it only suitable if you understand the nerves of the dog

Totally agree, these were hard Shutzhund dogs in training with experienced handlers.

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

Unfortunately prong collars are banned here in Melbourne, so these are out of the question when training companion obedience in a school. We have to make do with correction chains, margtingales etc.

K9: yes Im aware of the ban, however I thought you were speaking "generally" when you spoke of harsh correction collars, what were you speaking of?

K:

I would be inclined to praise after correction with both types of dogs. I have seen no harm in doing so especially with a softer dog. In my experience they recover quicker and don't end up working like robots or look as though they are trying to forever beat a correction.

K9: yes as do I, just giving you the ideal behind those that do not praise after corrections..

K:

Ours is a little different ie. drive-lure-drive. We still achieve the desired results. Again, training for companion obedience, some handlers are reluctant to use compulsion therefore we don't use it - only on rare occasions.

K9: as in all our programs, the dog chooses the level of correction (compulsion) & if it is required, an over the top dog that wont focus can benefit from a correction...

[Ciara]

 

I've seen a technique whereby you correct (physical) and treat simultaneously which results in even quicker compliance along with eagerness.

Sounds like an idea out of a book called *Natural dog training* - I forget the authors name but I didn't find it a very helpful book anyway.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Ciara

[Kelpie-i]

K9: yes Im aware of the ban, however I thought you were speaking "generally" when you spoke of harsh correction collars, what were you speaking of?

Hi K9

I didn't make the statement re the "harsh correction collars". I think it may have been Wagalot.

Sounds like an idea out of a book called *Natural dog training* - I forget the authors name but I didn't find it a very helpful book anyway

Ciara, it wasn't from a book. I saw it on Joanne Plumb's video and also saw it being used at Shutzhund training club.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[Rusky]

so are we going to do as Kelpie suggested?

is a good idea.

I am always open to others suggestions and generally 'try out' with my very placid beautiful old goldie who is a great advertisment for teaching an old dog new tricks, thanks to "toilet duck" we have managed a few together using a variety of positive training methods.

I use her for new stuff cos she loves it, gets a spring in her step ;)

Most owners really and truly just want a pet who doesn't do wees or poos in the wrong place, can walk without requiring a total arm and shoulder transplant, doesn't jump up on poor unsuspecting people including the owner and barks only to alert to danger or sometimes for happiness ( they are dogs, dogs bark)

They like to miss a feeding frenzy and have a dog who will behave in a polite manner around food.

The number one reason though in my experience is recall if they are put in order of importance to the owner.

I am speaking for beginners here, not trialists or specific occupation training.

Beginners can be any age, sometimes sadly the owners don't try to do anything about the poor dogs manners till things are desperate.

We now have 2 sorts of dogs

baby dog to teach recall

older dog who may or may not have been punished for recall ( sadly this is often the case)

If you look at a puppy it comes to you so recall really should be the easiest to teach. The puppy comes because that is what happens in the litter or pack, when you look at a puppy and it comes running over all happy and ears flapping with excitement imagine how the poor thing feels when the owner/handler ignores it and worse pushes it away? It happens and poor pup is totally confused.

I think this happens a lot, a great deal.

If anyone else is interested in Kelpies idea we could start a thread called recall for beginners. Then sit for beginners and so on?

If not forget it and I will go and teach my old dog a new trick

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Rusky

Actually I think it was Erny who originally suggesed this, I just seconded it.

I too would like to concentrate on techniques used for teaching companion dogs and not trialists. I think most of the posters here do some form of companion dog training - please correct me if I am wrong here guys!

I don't know how to start this, but I do notice that there is a separate "isolated" section on teaching tricks. Perhaps we could ask the Forum admnistrators for something like this specifically on techniques for obedience. It would not be a sort of "discussion" thread but mainly something where trainers/instructors could add valuable technique information and what they have found works or doesn't.

What do you guys think???

[Erny]

I'm not in to 'teaching/training' via the internet. Too many anomalies involved due to individualism between dogs, and too much room to mis-interpret written posts, by dog owners. I think the best place for learning to train your dog is at dog training school or by way of private lessons, where things are not only explained, but demonstrated, so you can hear AND SEE what is meant. Don't mind helping out when people are stuck on something they're working on at training school, or need something explained, or want different points of view, though.

I'm meaning more a forum where training techniques are discussed. The goods, the bads, what other people think about them.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Erny

[Rusky]

Hi erny

yes that would be wonderful, that is what I meant not a training via the internet. Discussion the key

[Erny]

No worries, Rusky. Don't think I'll be starting it off tonight, though. Have a bunch load of reading to do in an attempt to gain some deeper knowledge about BSL in anticipation of helping out at the EDBA stand at Diamond Creek on Sunday. Plus, I'm tired.

I think it would be a good idea to start it up under a separate thread - not only because we've already well and truley hi-jacked the OP's topic, but also for easy searching using the DOL search engine, if we need to.

I think Kelpie-i's idea of maybe asking the DOL administrators if the thread topic can be highlighted the same as "Dog tricks" are. That way, people who have questions/comments can go straight there, instead of starting up new threads all over the place.