Food Refusal - Help!

[Leeanne]

I am planning on teaching my two new pups food refusal, have never done it before, and am wondering if anyone might let me know what they think of my plans....

First stage:

I plan to plant treats in the yard, let the pup (one at a time) outside and wait until they find it. As they go for it, I plan to fire a cap gun out of their sight. I have read about the remote e collar and its use in this exercise, but don't think I could use one. Once they shy away from the treat as a result of the fright of the sound, I plan to call them over to me, and feed them some treats from my hand and their bowl, praise etc.

Stage two:

Will repeat stage one in different spots on the property so they don't associate loud sounds with just one area.

Stage three:

Take them to areas that they will be spending time outside of our property, and repeat excercise with real life items that they attempt to get their mouths around.

Let friends call pups over to feed reward treats as well, so they don't only take food from me and my husband.

What do you think??? I lost a 7 month old pup a while ago to fox bait, and am determined to teach this in the hopes of preventing something so horrible happening again.

Would REALLY appreciate help on this as I've never taught it before.

Many thanks.

[Staranais]

If you PM Erny, she might be willing to discuss this with you one-on-one. I know she has taught food refusal to several dogs (including her own), without an ecollar.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: what your attempting to do is create a negative feeling about food, I would advise against it.

Take a moment to think down the track when you board your dog somewhere & it wont eat, or if you ever have to over come an anxiety problem, that you might create with this type of training, & you have no way of food treating the dog?

You would be better teaching the leave it command & keeping your dogs in sight when they are off leash.

I also know that 1080 isnt put in places where you are supposed to be with your dog.

[Leeanne]

the 1080 that my dog ate was laid on a beach in my community. there were no signs, no advertisements in the local paper, absolutely none of the protocols that the department of natural resources and mines expects of approved operators were followed. we were walking along a public walking track that allows dogs and leads to this beach.

i understand what you are suggesting in terms of the possible negative side affects of training food refusal. this is why i am online asking for opinions.

[Steve K9Pro]

i understand what you are suggesting in terms of the possible negative side affects of training food refusal. this is why i am online asking for opinions.

K9: its a shame they are so careless with the bait, however, there arent possible negative side effects, there are definate negative side effects.

You would be better keeping an eye on your dogs when off leash.

[boxagirl]

I taught Bondi a perfect fod refusal by: dropping some food on the floor, and as she went to get it I covered it with my foot and tightened the lead and said "leave it" then I took my foot off the food (while she was still concentrated on me) and walked away. Then got her to sit and look at me, and then I gave her the release/ok command and let her eat the food.

Don't know if that made sense, but it has left Bondi with a perfect food refusal (and toy) from when she was only a little pup, I could leave food on the floor all day and leave the room and it would still be there when I got back ;)

This type of food refusal only works if you are there to tell the dog to leave it though.

You would be better keeping an eye on your dogs when off leash.

;)

[Staranais]

Take a moment to think down the track when you board your dog somewhere & it wont eat, or if you ever have to over come an anxiety problem, that you might create with this type of training, & you have no way of food treating the dog?

My understanding of food refusal is that the dog is taught to leave all food until given a specific release command allowing him to eat (by anyone). Sort of like teaching the dog to wait for dinner, only the dog is taught that the "wait for permission" rule applies to all food the dog might find.

Is that the kind of thing you're talking about that might cause problems later on for the dog?

Just interested - haven't tried this with my dog.

;)

[Erny]

I taught Bondi a perfect fod refusal by: dropping some food on the floor, and as she went to get it I covered it with my foot and tightened the lead and said "leave it" ........... This type of food refusal only works if you are there to tell the dog to leave it though.

IMO, that's not "Food Refusal".

I think I've posted (here or elsewhere) the difference between "Food Refusal" and "Leave".

Food Refusal: the dog does not eat without hearing the "eat" command.

Leave: the dog will eat unless it hears the "leave" command.

[FHRP]

My first concern was the negative results you are relying and putting on loud noises. Do you want a dog that is sensitive to noise? Start making a negative association with a cap gun and any loud noises may also be cause for concern for the dog. Trucks, thunder, back firing cars etc.

Owning gundogs, one that is shot over, and raising a litter of gundogs of which pups went to hunting homes, we actually make the effort to introduce loud noises while the dog is doing something they love, inlcuding at meal times.

I'm sorry I don't have any constructive advice on how to actually teach what you are after. I am currently training the formal food refusal exercise done in UD obedience, but that is quite different.

[Staranais]

The most sensible way I've heard so far to teach this (thanks Erny!) is to introduce your "release" command first. Every time you give the dog something to eat, give him the "release" command that says it is OK to eat.

After a while, you can start introducing corrections for eating when you haven't given the "release" command. For a puppy, I imagine the corrections could just be a verbal "uh-uh" and removal of the food. I don't imagine it would take the puppy long to learn the difference between the release command (= you can eat) and no release command (= don't eat yet).

When the puppy has that down, you'll need to proof the command - different foods, different locations, different people giving the release command, and probably also set up situations where food is present and you are out of sight. Each time ensuring that the puppy is only able to eat after the command is given.

Like I said, this isn't my protocol and I haven't used it myself. It does make logical sense to me, however.

Is that the kind of thing you're talking about, K9? I don't understand how that would negatively affect a dog, but you're the pro - so could you explain? ;)

Edited September 30, 2005 by Amhailte

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

Is that the kind of thing you're talking about, K9? I don't understand how that would negatively affect a dog, but you're the pro - so could you explain?

K9: "true" food refusal is a dog that wont eat unless its by a specific command, period.

I have clients that have taught the dog this, via the tried & proven methods.

The dog is taught to believe that if it doesnt eat from its own bowl, or when commanded to by that specific hanlder, it will pay for it.

The way this is done is to initially scare the dog away from strabge food & finally cause the dog a considerable amount of pain by going near strange food.

The food can then be picked up & fed to the dog from the bowl.

If we teach an adult dog this, the problem is that if the dog is lost, found & impounded, it wont eat. If its boarded, it wont eat.

If we train a puppy this way, your likely to find your self training in a development period such as a fear impact period, adding high aversives & fear in these times "will" cause fallout.

If you try & cure any problem in which you may want use food, or try & use food treating to teach any new behaviour later on, forget it.

I have conducted field searches with my dogs in areas in which fresh 1080 has been laid, when they have come accross it a simple leave it command was all that was required to get them moving along.

When a dog comes accross some food, the initial act is to sniff/analyse, then maybe scoff it down.

Whilst sniffing, leave it works well, if they touched it leave it (for my dogs) also works fine.

Look at it this way, you go for a walk with your dog, that you have tried to remove rsik from, so yo snake proof the dog, then teach food refusal, teach it a leave it command & tecah it not to chase Kangaroos etc etc..

You have a dog that is very low risk, & I will also bet, full of nerves & has no drive.

I have been brought dogs that people tried this & similar training steps on, it can take months to undo mistakes.

Leave it command, permission to eat etc are all ok, true food refusal Im not keen on.

[Staranais]

Leave it command, permission to eat etc are all ok, true food refusal Im not keen on.

Oh OK, I didn't realise there was a difference between "permission to eat" and "food refusal".

[boxagirl]

Food Refusal: the dog does not eat without hearing the "eat" command.

Leave: the dog will eat unless it hears the "leave" command.

Oh, thanks Erny. :D

LOL Bondi does that anyway if the food is comming from someone/somewhere strange, she won't to eat from someone/somewhere new

Barkly on the other hand... :D

[Erny]

You have a dog that is very low risk, & I will also bet, full of nerves & has no drive.

Hi K9. Curious about this remark. To make sure I'm not misinterpreting, I presume you are saying that a (successfully) food refusal trained dog is likely to be low on drive and full of nerves?

Not picking ... genuinely interested.

My own dog aside (who came with low drive/nervey problems when I adopted her as a 7 year old) and for which FR training came very easily and did not appear to affect or effect (either way) her temperament in this regard (FR training was necessary IMO due to issues with neighbours .... who've since moved. FR training regime has since softened, to an extent.)

Generally and personally speaking, I'm not fond of what I believe you call "true Food Refusal" ... the type of training where, password or no password, the dog will not eat from anyone but its owner (eg), either.

But why I'm curious about your statement is that the people that I know of who have (for their own reasons) felt it advantageous to their dog's well being to train Food Refusal to such heights, have had the type of dogs that I would describe as "hard" or "tough". Veeeerrrry strong on drive and not the slightest bit nervous (the opposite, in fact). And yet the owners' FR training regime was extremely strict and rigid.

Or are you perhaps referring to the affects of FR training on an average 'pet dog' type animal, who starts out with a softer temperament in the first place?

Or have I completely misunderstood you? :D

[Leeanne]

Very interesting discussion indeed. I am wondering if any of the trainers could recommend a really good training DVD or video. I am in an isolated community and do not have a dog club or class to go to with my new pups. I have decided to teach LEAVE IT instead of my initial plan, as I am not interested in creating any anxiety problems whatsoever. I learn best by watching, so would really appreciate any suggestions on a good video that we can get in oz.

Many thanks.

[Dogsfevr]

We have boarding kennels & some clients have trained food refusal but i can truley say when the owners arent around the dogs dont follow the theory.

We had 1 dog that was FR trained the owner was in a car accidient & in hospital very ill,relatives dropped the dog off & no one new it was FR trained nor the word.

I can tell you now it was a very distressing time for us,the dog & the relatives.

The dog finely ate due to being so hungry & we where so grateful for that because it could have ended badly(the owner died).

So remember if you do teach it a word then let family members now,have it on the vet records or let any person who will be responsable for the dogs incase of emergencies now.

I have friends who are very high up in obedience & trialling & i now they wont train FR but will do scent work only.

each to there own ,my dogs arent trained for FR but generally speaking when the dog respects your voice & you say "leaveit" they will,whether it be food,dead animal etc etc its all about total control & awareness of what your dogs doing offlead.

many people let them offlead & they go so far away that owners wouldnt have aclue whats up ahead to even yell "leave it"

[Erny]

many people let them offlead & they go so far away that owners wouldnt have aclue whats up ahead to even yell "leave it"

This is where I find FR training an advantage. Even if it's merely trained to not take food when it's owners' are around (ie in proximity).

IMO, To command 'leave' assumes you are quite close to your dog and can see what it is sniffing at. ..... not always possible.

[Steve K9Pro]

Erny:

To make sure I'm not misinterpreting, I presume you are saying that a (successfully) food refusal trained dog is likely to be low on drive and full of nerves?

K9: sorry, I meant that this " You have a dog that is very low risk, & I will also bet, full of nerves & has no drive."

is what you will likely end up with if you go for strict food refusal on a pet dog.

E:

Generally and personally speaking, I'm not fond of what I believe you call "true Food Refusal" ... the type of training where, password or no password, the dog will not eat from anyone but its owner (eg), either.

K9: nor am I, its qite a common request with protection dogs etc & I advise to steer away from it, & provide a better solution such as eliminate the threat.

E:

But why I'm curious about your statement is that the people that I know of who have (for their own reasons) felt it advantageous to their dog's well being to train Food Refusal to such heights, have had the type of dogs that I would describe as "hard" or "tough". Veeeerrrry strong on drive and not the slightest bit nervous (the opposite, in fact). And yet the owners' FR training regime was extremely strict and rigid.

K9: yes over the years I have seen quite a few dogs successfully trained in Food refusal, without problems & have trained several myself, just not in the last 10 years as I feel other ways are better without risk.

But I have treated many more pets & hard dogs that the training had negative effects on.

Showdog:

We have boarding kennels & some clients have trained food refusal but i can truley say when the owners arent around the dogs dont follow the theory.

K9: yes this is what I have found, but I feel its a terminology problem, food refusal is will not eat, no matter what, the dog believes eating is not possible out of the regime created by the handler.

Not accepting food from strangers or eating off the ground may be a good manners training program.

The dogs that I have worked with & trained this way, would not eat, period.

I think thats over the top.

[Erny]

K9: nor am I, its qite a common request with protection dogs etc & I advise to steer away from it, & provide a better solution such as eliminate the threat.

I agree. Can be difficult to elimate the neighbours, sometimes, though. (Unless, of course, you use the "distance provoking spell" I used to make mine move away!

[Steve K9Pro]

E:

Can be difficult to elimate the neighbours, sometimes, though.

K9: camera, even fake one mounted on pole to be very visable that looks like it covering fence is a great deterent, also stops those fool neighbours that insist on provoking dogs then whinning about the barking....

Having said that, I have never had a neighbour that spent much time near the fence where my dogs run...

Of course a burst of automatic weapon fire over the fence has proved most effective. lol.