Prey Drive And Control

[Purple Julie]

For example to PJ's question above: Is PJ moving the ball correctly with swift level movements to make/create drive, or jerking the ball around? Is she asking for the sit too quickly? Or as you mentioned in a prior post, does PJ need to concentrate on just building drive and forgetting past obedience which can retard a dogs drive?

Edited: Another question before I too leave to go training- is PJ encouraging and praising/petting her dog as it is being motivated in drive?

Are you asking me or Steve these questions? Steve hasn't seen me working with Jyra in prey drive, so he wouldn't know the answers to these questions. It would be nice if he could, that'd help me too! I shall try my best to answer them below:

Is PJ moving the ball correctly with swift level movements to make/create drive, or jerking the ball around?

I don't know, maybe I need to not jerk it so much, but she does pounce a lot and desparately tries to get it, and if I tie her to the pole and play with the ball, she will bark out of frustration of not being able to get it.

Is she asking for the sit too quickly?

How quick is too quick? I ask her to sit when I stop the ball. LL, do you think I should delay the sit command?

Or as you mentioned in a prior post, does PJ need to concentrate on just building drive and forgetting past obedience which can retard a dogs drive?

Jyra has pretty high drive. I have built up her drive for the ball by tying her to a pole and playing with the ball. She will bark and carry on and leap and nearly rip the pole out of the ground. So I think that her drive is high.

Another question before I too leave to go training- is PJ encouraging and praising/petting her dog as it is being motivated in drive?

I haven't been patting her when I am throwing the ball around, but when she catches the ball I give her verbal and physical praise.

LL, just curious about the hard/soft mouth thing. If Stamp picked up an egg it would crack, right? But a soft mouthed dog could pick up an egg without it cracking? Obviously you're not working with eggs. I'm using an example that I can relate to. Same with squeaky balls? Would a hard mouth dog squeak the ball, whereas a soft mouth dog just carry the ball without squeaking it?

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

I know what you mean about too controlled, but what I don't know is how I did it! Or if it is possible to undo it? Probably working on it too much . . .

K9: I feel that when training in drive, you have top build drive to a useable level before using said drive.

Too much control I feel comes from when you make the dog complete the excercises rather than the dog offerss them in drive.

The first way is not the dog working in drive, its you lowering/extinguishing drive..

K:

Or is it worth it? Maybe I should stick to mainly food with Diesel and use prey for the next dog?

K9": depends on your goals, if he was my dog & I had plans for him, I would "have" to get him working in prey, food isnt any good for what I do, but if it will meet your needs than there is no problem with it.

I still say, better to work in food DRIVE than exchange food fopr compliance, there is a huge difference...

**************************

LL:

Hard mouth around the world in retrievers is considered uncurable.

K9: yeah yeah, lol, I have heard dogs that have a weka bite cant be cured, that wont go forward during agitation cant be cured & so many other things.

I have come to the conclusion that cant be cured translates to one of two things:-

1. They dont know how, or.

2. They dont want to spend the time.

I feel that there are also two types of trainers, one that has been shown how to train certain excercises in a specific pattern, & those who know how & why the dog works & thus can overcome things that fall outside the pattern...

LL:

I cannot help wondering those who read this thread, who do not own a highly motivated labrador or breed, added to the fact that they know nothing about the standards of high level retrieving trials, think my problem was just a small one.

K9: problems are always bigger when they are your own problems, lol, also those problems always get smaller when you know how to fix them.

LL:

It is just so maddening that this dog thinks his life depends on retrieving.

K9: not when your good at getting the dog to do what you want though...

[Lablover]

Julie you made me get an egg from the fridge to try. The things we do!!!

Sensibly, might I add, I thought it more prudent to try the egg test on a hard surface. No problems he delivered it gently.

We then moved to a carpetted area, which lucky for me (from a cleaning prospective, LOL), Stamp again delivered with no problem.

We moved outside to our front paddock. Being an intelligent person (well sometimes/rarely I am so) I fought my natural urge to throw the retrieving object, but left Stamp on a sit command and proceeded 150 yards away. I felt rather silly placing an egg, but no matter, I did. I sent Stamp to the known area and he delivered the egg intact.

It was coated with slobber by this time, so when we returned to the house, I cracked the egg open. As Stamp was enjoying his treat I wandered back inside to type my report, he left half his treat uneaten, heeled by my side, in the mistaken belief more retrieves would be in the picture. He is currently mouthing my hand nagging me for more. Off I go to appease him some more.

Thanks for making my afternoon.

[Kavik]

OK, so I've been going about it the wrong way?

But what do I do when I run myself ragged and he just sits there and watches me?

I just did a bit of work with him, and got him reasonably interested, just chasing the tug (once he gets it he is happy to tug for a long time, but chasing it he is still slow), but still not as fast or as worked up as I know he can be.

I must really be doing something wrong?

I need to get a copy of that building drive DVD for ideas!

[Lablover]

Kavik and I are in the chat room if anyone wants to join us? Discussing using drives.

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

OK, so I've been going about it the wrong way?

K9: well as mentioned, I cant say as I havent seen you.

K:

But what do I do when I run myself ragged and he just sits there and watches me?

K9: you need to develop his available drive, this means back tie, frustrate him chasing a n item. Build the drive until its very high before you use it, it wouldnt be unreasonable to assume that this may take two weeks, 10 mins a day or more...

K:

I just did a bit of work with him, and got him reasonably interested, just chasing the tug (once he gets it he is happy to tug for a long time, but chasing it he is still slow), but still not as fast or as worked up as I know he can be.

K9: satisfaction is coming to easy & his drive isnt built..

K:

I need to get a copy of that building drive DVD for ideas!

K9: all it will probably get you is the idea your dog lacks drive.

[Purple Julie]

PJ:

Should I be doing something to push her a bit more?

K9: have her wait up to 30 seconds before releasing ball.

I tried that yesterday and she sat for the whole 30 seconds. I also had her sit for a minute. She just waited patiently and zoomed after the ball when I released it. I took a photo while she was sitting and thought about posting it. But I haven't uploaded it. Anyone want to see it?

[Purple Julie]

We then moved to a carpetted area, which lucky for me (from a cleaning prospective, LOL), Stamp again delivered with no problem.

Gosh, you're daring!

So he was gentle with the egg, but he is not so gentle with the bumpers? Am I right? Or have I misunderstood something?

[Steve K9Pro]

PJ:

I tried that yesterday and she sat for the whole 30 seconds. I also had her sit for a minute. She just waited patiently and zoomed after the ball when I released it

K9: yes! & no...

Training in drive (to get results) is done via a program.

Drive evaluation.. (see if dog has drives & nerves to suit your work).

Drive development..(build drive to its potential)

Build basic drive skills (bite development, fetch, retrieve (basic) depending on your goal)

Drive control (the addition of formal commands, sit, sit hold, drop, drop hold, heel..)

Training drive satisfaction (ignor one drive motivator to gain success form handlers motivator)

Training under distraction.

Thats the basic plan... So as I dont know what you have done, & you dont know the individual steps within each above step, I cant tell you whats right & whats wrong.

Step one is important as not everyone needs control in drive, most other methods work on lower drive & raising thresholds to drives, which is easier, just doesnt have the dynamic action often required for some goals...

[Lablover]

We then moved to a carpetted area, which lucky for me (from a cleaning prospective, LOL), Stamp again delivered with no problem.   

Gosh, you're daring!

So he was gentle with the egg, but he is not so gentle with the bumpers? Am I right? Or have I misunderstood something?

It would have been interesting to perform the egg test when Stamp was at his worst.

He is fine with bumpers nowadays. I did test him with empty plastic soft drink bottles to hear/see when he actually started to bite down also.

BTW, Julie - Happpy Birthday for yesterday.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Lablover

[Steve K9Pro]

LL":

Hard mouth around the world in retrievers is considered uncurable. I am trying desperately to prove the theory wrong

& now lol.

LL

He is fine with bumpers nowadays.

K9: is that the proof your looking for? lol...

[Lablover]

What is a back tie and how it is used?

I presume for frustrating a dog.

Can I throw an extra spanner in the works and add the next topic CONTROL. part.

With my youngsters I am amazed how they "learn" straight sits and sit as far as I can throw a retrieving object (normally a paint roller at first, due to its softness or rather my aim, LOL).

[PAX]

Lablover,

Just wanted to say that i don't think your posts on mouthing are boring.

My dog was mouthing the dumbell badly and Steve told me what had helped you. I know its not quite as important for me, but i was very concerned and don't want to throw away points. Nothing else was working to fix the problem but now it seems fixed. I have not tried the egg test yet but am working up to it.

Keep posting.

Lisa

[Kavik]

I think I get more tired than Diesel with drive building exercises

OK so I backtie him and frustrate him with the toy. What do I do if he stands there, and only moves to lunge at the toy if it comes close to his mouth? When do I know to give him the toy?

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

What is a back tie and how it is used?

I presume for frustrating a dog.

K9: yes its for drive building, or taking your presence away from the item when a dog is working it, then you also need a stick & rope.

LL:

Can I throw an extra spanner in the works and add the next topic CONTROL. part.

K9: of course

K:

I think I get more tired than Diesel with drive building exercises

K9: it can be physical, but back tie him, get broomstick with 4 feet of rope on it & bumper on end, you stay still, use stick to move bumper..

K:

OK so I backtie him and frustrate him with the toy. What do I do if he stands there, and only moves to lunge at the toy if it comes close to his mouth? When do I know to give him the toy?

K9: spin it around dropping it right in front of him, then pop it away when he looks at it, if he has enough prey drive, he will go for it, when he shows an improvement, verbal big praise & allow him to catch it, praise again.

If he holds it & tugs it, work your way down the rope & run your hand over his head (no where near bumper) & down his chest. Then grab tie out & run him in small circles holding his head high, dont let him put it on the ground & chew it.

As time goes on, make it gradually harder & harder to capture the bumper.

Get him very interested in it & then dont alloow him to capture it, end the game with him failing to capture & dying for it.

Next day he be even more keen. Again, only a few captures, ending with failure.

When you have him screaming for it, use it without stick, in hand, start adding you to the satisfaction.

Then start to play the same game, only away from tie out, when you have him circling you hard, ask for a sit. Then imm release when he does.

[m-j]

I still say, better to work in food DRIVE than exchange food fopr compliance, there is a huge difference...

Sheesh and I thought it was that simple What is the difference? How do you tell if the dog is in drive or just looking to swap behaviours for food?

cheers

M-J

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: command then comply = give food to dog is exchanging, if the dog has to work to earn the food plus work to eat the food, it builds drive.

Have to really show you...

[Kavik]

Thanks K9! That description is a big help!

So sort of make it jump a bit?

I just tried it with the toy on a string (I tried with a string on stick- I am not coordinated enough to use that - he catches it too easy if I give him too much rope ) , made it jump and hop, seemed to work, he was interested and keen!

Maybe there is hope for him yet!

[Steve K9Pro]

Drop it right under his nose, the millisecond he moves at it jerk it away... Praise him like he is doing the best thing out...

There's always hope, do nothing with Ob or anything other than that for one week, 10 mins a day, see how he goes.

Keep your fingers out of his mouth.. lol..

[Purple Julie]

I think I might get a better idea of what to do if Steve were here! Maybe I can learn a lot at the workshop in November.

Regarding the back tie to build frustration, I have difficulites with this! I had her tied to the washing line, but the grass kind of got all destroyed from Jyra's jumping around, so that sort of put a stop to that, and I have tied her to a decorative light post which is in the soil, but next to the concrete, so Jyra is on the concrete, but she is too eager to get the ball and now the pole has a bit of movement back and forth. Sometimes she leaps up a bit too much and hits the end of the tie pretty hard. I don't think that is a good thing! So maybe I shouldn't be doing this type of frustration thing anymore. It seems that her drive and frustration are pretty high when she is tied. I know you can't tell properly without seeing, but what would you think from what I have described here and in other posts in this thread - have I built up her drive enough? Should I not do the tie out thing? Just off-lead (at home) frustration building?

Just another little question - Can high drive dogs ever run out of drive? I think the answer is 'no'. I know you can reduce drive through corrections, etc, but that is not what I mean. Through drive satisfaction, drive is also reduced a bit. But can you throw and throw and throw a ball, allowing the dog to capture it every time and it will never lose interest? Or say there is no or little satisfaction, as in capturing the prey (eg chasing flies), will they ever run out of desire to chase the item in a particular day? I imagine that a new day would bring renewed drive.