Prey Drive And Control

[MonElite]

Bit off topic here but I just wanted to say that I tried to teach my dog unsucessfully for almost 5 years to fetch (obviously Im a lausy teacher) and somehow dont even know how he started bringing the item back to me in prey drive after a handfull of play sessions.

We are faaaaar from perfect but just the fact that he does run back to me full speed almost crashing into me with the ball in his mouth is just jawdropping.

And on the note of prey drive and satysfying items.... I train with a ball on a string. My dog is too polite to steal anything from the table (no matter how juicy the steak would be its safe on the table). Last night I left the ball on the table. 30 minutes later there is Rexy carrying it around thief! I was stunned to say the least.

[Sonic]

Sorry to steal the thread for a moment, but there is a company in Queensland called Dogmaster that sells e-collars and containment systems.

Could this be you dogmaster?

[Staranais]

You might also look back in this thread & see that someone did mention that the did high stim their dog in a chase & it did not deter the dog, although the dog did vocalise.

Was that my dog? If not, I can vouch that the same thing has happened to me. My dog hesitated for a moment, then took off again after the ducks. The continuous high stim only seemed to hype him up more.

I've also had the experience of my dog nearly puncturing his eyeball on a stick (the splinter went half way through the cornea), and immediately bringing the stick back to me for me to throw it again. I honestly don't believe any modern ecollar could deter my dog in full prey drive, if a punctured eyeball couldn't.

Funny thing is, he's only a pet. I bet the police and schutzhund dogs K9force comes into contact with are much higher in drive than he is!

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

I honestly don't believe any modern ecollar could deter my dog in full prey drive, if a punctured eyeball couldn't.

K9: my method, focus & control works on several levels, but the e collar works as a behavioural interuptor, when trained in this method, the dog feels a light stim from the collar & has been trained to look for a command, that command complied with will see the dog (in training) recieve a higher value prey item.

The collar coming opn also interupts the focus on the item the dog is chasing & makes it easier for the dog to control its drive.

You are correct though in saying that, just about no amount of pain will deter a dog in high drive.

[Staranais]

Sorry K9, perhaps I phrased that badly. I was meaning that I don't believe that any modern ecollar could "shock" my dog out of prey drive, since he seems to be amazingly immune to pain when in drive. Since your methods don't rely on "shocking" a dog out of drive, it wasn't a comment on your methods.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: no problem, I know what you mean. Just as an addition, I find that buying an e collar simply for correction training makes the tool a very expensive peice of equipment indeed.

One of the things I say plenty throughout my manual is "never let the dog know the collar can hurt him".

When I put the collar on the dog I want the dog 100% clear headed so we can work, not the dog wondering when I'm going to blast him...

[Purple Julie]

Ok, just want to verify something about training in drive. We'll use 'sit' as an example.

You have the ball on the string moving it about lots and the dog is in drive. When do you command the sit? Do you hold the ball, then command 'sit'? Or do you command 'sit' while the ball is still moving?

I tried both this morning, and Jyra would sit for me either way I did it. I also did the same with drops.

When the dog complies to the command and sits, you throw the ball straight away intially, right? When is it okay to increase the duration of the sit or require more, such as focus? And do you require the dog to focus on you, or can you only expect them to focus on the ball?

As I said two paragraphs above, Jyra will sit or drop for me on command in prey drive with the ball on the string, at home. What is the next step? Should I work on the sit more and forget about the drop for a while? Should I change my prey item from the ball to a more highly desired prey, such as flowing water from the hose? She goes really mad over that. I think I would definately have to turn the hose off to get her to sit and reward her by turning it back on. Getting her to sit when the hose is on could be difficult!! Would the goal be to get her to do that if you are training in drive?

ETA - Picture: This is how much Jyra loves chasing the water!

Edited September 23, 2005 by Purple Julie

[Staranais]

One question then, K9force - If you're using an ecollar as an environmental correction (e.g to deter a dog from marking things or digging) you obviously need the collar set higher than you would use it for low-stim ecollar work, right?

So are you saying that you can't employ both uses of the collar for the same dog? Because he'll always be worrying that the low-stim will turn into a high-stim "enviromental correction". Or is there a way of using both methods effectively on the same dog?

Hope that question made some sense.

[Steve K9Pro]

PJ:

Do you hold the ball, then command 'sit'? Or do you command 'sit' while the ball is still moving?

K9: bring the ball high & to s atop, pause a second then command sit, the pause will cause an untrained dog to jump after the ball, & not be able to get it, to a trained dog, it raises self control in drive.

PJ:

I tried both this morning, and Jyra would sit for me either way I did it. I also did the same with drops.

K9: yes but one doesnt train self control.

PJ:

When the dog complies to the command and sits, you throw the ball straight away intially, right?

K9: Initially you just open the hand & let the ball fall.

PJ:

When is it okay to increase the duration of the sit or require more, such as focus? And do you require the dog to focus on you, or can you only expect them to focus on the ball?

K9: takes while before the dog looks at you only.

PJ:

As I said two paragraphs above, Jyra will sit or drop for me on command in prey drive with the ball on the string, at home. What is the next step?

K9: train to gain control as I said above, add a little time before you drop the ball, do this all in the sit, then go to the drop, then heel steps.

Pj:

Should I change my prey item from the ball to a more highly desired prey, such as flowing water from the hose?

K9: I have no idea how you would guide flowing water vfrom a hose...

The item isnt important, its the movement that is important.

*********************************

A:

If you're using an ecollar as an environmental correction (e.g to deter a dog from marking things or digging) you obviously need the collar set higher than you would use it for low-stim ecollar work, right?

K9: I suppose if your keen to add a negative association to something in one hit, yes, but I would rather use the low stim to teach the dog that what eveit is doing is not just as much fun as the dog thought it was, a few more reps will be required but it is just as effective without pain... So I only use the low stim for everything.

[Staranais]

Thanks, that makes sense.

[Purple Julie]

Okay, well Jyra's control seems to be pretty good with the sit in prey drive with the ball. If I stop the ball and command sit, she will sit and stay until I release her and let her have the ball. Should I be doing something to push her a bit more?

K9: I have no idea how you would guide flowing water vfrom a hose...

Move the hose around a lot or hold it still and let her have it. Jyra just loves biting the water, and then I can just switch it off at the nozzle. You don't think it's a good idea? It certainly has its limitations! Can't take the hose with me everywhere, but can take the ball most places.

[Steve K9Pro]

PJ:

Should I be doing something to push her a bit more?

K9: have her wait up to 30 seconds before releasing ball.

PJ":

Move the hose around a lot or hold it still and let her have it. Jyra just loves biting the water, and then I can just switch it off at the nozzle. You don't think it's a good idea? It certainly has its limitations! Can't take the hose with me everywhere, but can take the ball most places.

K9: first, your dog can never capture the water... so plenty of frustration, not so much satisfaction.

Second, if done right, you will be what is being focussed on in prey drive, so you dont need the ball...

No, you wont be the prey item, but a component of the trigger & a big part of the satisfaction.

Off to training field now...

[MonElite]

The item isnt important, its the movement that is important.

if thats the case why for Rex one ball is soooooo much more valuable than the other?

[Lablover]

I might ask, from how long had he been marking birds, then how long had you tried to fix it, then after starting the prey drive drill, how long was it until the all age where his mouth was good?

How long: Stamp had always displayed, looking back in hindsight and without rose coloured glasses, the tendency to roll retrieved objects in his mouth. The mouthing would be displayed, at its worst, at competitions with the extra stress ??and excitement. I had (and still) beat myself up on why why why he displayed hard mouth, which first manifested itself by freezing - not giving up the retrieve readily - from memory twice at trials. The freezing was "cured" easily, but obviously I did not look at the whole picture as one BIG problem. I wrongly assumed or rather dreamed LOL, it would settle in time, he as matured. He also until about a year ago would become sexually excited at training and at trials, so much so that I would have to wait until (OMG how embarassing) until he ejaculated and settled.

Length of time I tried to fix it:

Again in hindsight (which as such all very well NOW), I feel I ignored the first subtle signs. He would slight hover over a retrieve especially noticable on when the retrieve itself had been conceptually difficult in water.

At training his returns seemed to be better. His body language was certainly more relaxed and he did not display those manic eyes when delivering.

Shortly before heeding your exercises he had been at his worst (so I had tried to fix the problem myself for 2 weeks) The day will never be forgotten. I had arrived late, and virtually just grabbed him from his crate and ran. I came home that day shattered as I thought I would have to wash him, or give him a long rest possibly concentrating on obedience trials for a while.

I found by the second day of any competition he would definitely be more settled. I also found by getting him off his peg/or from his crate, at least 20 minutes before running he would be more stable.

It is all terribly frustrating as I will never know what I did as a trainer to encourage this habit. I know I used to send him for repetitive drills very quickly as he was keen to "go" again. I also know I let him snatch treats from my hands in the house, which I also stopped and encouraged "gentle".

From the time I started your exercises a period of 11 weeks had passed.

[Lablover]

PJ:

Do you hold the ball, then command 'sit'? Or do you command 'sit' while the ball is still moving?

K9: bring the ball high & to s atop, pause a second then command sit, the pause will cause an untrained dog to jump after the ball, & not be able to get it, to a trained dog, it raises self control in drive.

LL: K9, I was going to ask these same questions when you were available in Victoria in a couple of months. Can I add my questions now or should I wait patiently? I hope I am doing my young dog and friends dogs correctly?

For example to PJ's question above: Is PJ moving the ball correctly with swift level movements to make/create drive, or jerking the ball around? Is she asking for the sit too quickly? Or as you mentioned in a prior post, does PJ need to concentrate on just building drive and forgetting past obedience which can retard a dogs drive?

Edited: Another question before I too leave to go training- is PJ encouraging and praising/petting her dog as it is being motivated in drive?

Edited September 23, 2005 by Lablover

[Steve K9Pro]

M:

if thats the case why for Rex one ball is soooooo much more valuable than the other?

K9: In his mind, he believes one ball gives more satisfaction than the other.

LL:

Is PJ moving the ball correctly with swift level movements to make/create drive, or jerking the ball around? Is she asking for the sit too quickly? Or as you mentioned in a prior post, does PJ need to concentrate on just building drive and forgetting past obedience which can retard a dogs drive?

K9: these could all be possible, as Im not there its hard to tell, when writing my replies I have meant to write each & every time, "I could have trained the dog in less time its taken me to write this post".

[Kavik]

I know what you mean about too controlled, but what I don't know is how I did it! Or if it is possible to undo it? Probably working on it too much . . .

I guess what I should do is forget about obedience in drive for now and try to build it?

Or is it worth it? Maybe I should stick to mainly food with Diesel and use prey for the next dog?

[Lablover]

Oh damm. I was hoping for some input regardless if you all thought it was a pile of bull droppings.

Remember if you do reply I do not take opinions negatively or badly, I am learning all the time and how I love it.

Even though some other ideas I have leant on my travels, I do not agree with, it starts me wondering why a certain exercise works on a particular dog. Stamp does everything else well and tries so hard. ;)

Hard mouth around the world in retrievers is considered uncurable. I am trying desperately to prove the theory wrong and frankly K9's exercises had wonderful results in my case. Thus I hold K9 force in the highest regard.

[MonElite]

Hard mouth around the world in retrievers is considered uncurable. I am trying desperately to prove the theory wrong and frankly K9's exercises had wonderful results in my case.

Were your ears burning on Sat afternoon?

I had a lesson with Steve and he was telling me about you and your dog.

Thus I hold K9 force in the highest regard.

I will also sign the entry for to the K9 fan club. And thank you DOL for making it possible for me to find him.

[Lablover]

Were your ears burning on Sat afternoon? ;)

I had a lesson with Steve and he was telling me about you and your dog.

No my ears were not burning yesterday. Actually I felt normal (if I can ever be considered normal as I am so possessed by my dogs, LO). I am glad I did not feel knives in my back either.

Its funny, before my husband convinced me to buy a labrador, as our first dog, I put all labradors in the same basket, so to speak, lazy, boring and a little silly.

I cannot help wondering those who read this thread, who do not own a highly motivated labrador or breed, added to the fact that they know nothing about the standards of high level retrieving trials, think my problem was just a small one.

It is just so maddening that this dog thinks his life depends on retrieving.