Prey Drive And Control

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

If he honestly believes there is no chance of getting a duck, I guess it will make sense to him to work for the tennis ball instead. I will work him around distractions, and make it clear to him that going for the duck is not an option to satisfy his prey drive.

K9: as he has had success there in the past, he may not fully believe it, but he will learn that even an attempt is not worth it when there is another item that will come, right there.

A:

I guess my only concern is that he's not a stupid dog, that no matter how well trained he gets on leash, when I finally get around to working him off-leash around distraction he's going to realise the rules have changed and will probably try to beat me.

K9: I consider that normal & valueable, if he didnt try beating you in training, he would do it when you were proofing him & may win...

A:

And if the leash is off I really will have no way to physically stop him from chasing, or effectively correct him for chasing either

K9: then you know the answer, you wont attempt to proof him off leash until your 100% ready.

A:

Remote collar corrections for this won't stop him, I have borrowed one and tried, and he is just so crazy that even a correction that would make me yelp is totally ignored when he sees a prey object like a duck

K9: dogs can take quite a high correction in full drive, modern collars dont go high enough to blast a dog off a chase, it takes some time to teach the dog how to focus & turn low stim off, not overcome pain.

[Steve K9Pro]

PJ:

I was trying to train Jyra under mild prey drive distraction the other day. What I did was heel Jyra around the lounge room, with mum throwing the ball around a lot. If Jyra went for the ball, she got a correction. Then I would release Jyra and let her get the ball and she was thoroughly excited about it.

K9: no, your just the person threatening correction if she tries for prey drive success. This is avoidance training.

You need to manipulate the prey item & train her to comply in drive.

PJ:

I have also done this with sit stays and drop stays. At training the other day, I had Jyra in a drop stay and I played with the ball with heaps of movement, going fairly close to Jyra and she stayed in position. An observer would have thought she had very little prey drive until they see me release her. When I released with "go", she's right into doing aerial acrobatics to get the ball.

K9: your simply raising her threshold to prey drive, raising her self control, whilst valueable, this is not training in drive.

PJ:

So K9, how would you analyse this situation. Have I reduced her prey drive? Have I changed her threshold? Have I done something with avoidance?

K9: your avoidance training, useing ball as distraction. This in turn has raised her threshold to prey drive.

PJ:

K9, regarding your reply above to Amhailite's post, I found that very helpful, and would just like to expand on that. I can switch to the duck example, Jyra loves them too! 'Cat' or 'duck' can be interchangeable terms in my posts!

K9: Im not keen on using prey items I dont own, own as in control. Wildlife do things based on their levels of avoidance.

I use a controlled set of items until I am ready to proof.

PJ:

Would you reward with the ball after every release from the heel position? Or would you do it on a variable intermittent frequency?

K9: I teach the sit in drive, then drop then one heel step, 2 heel steps etc.

Pj:

In addition to what K9 said, I think (K9 can correct me if I'm wrong) that after you've done what K9 has said and have the heeling for the ball under low distration down pat, then when you go to the lake, river where the ducks are, start heeling your dog 50m away and reward with the ball, then reduce that distance 10m at a time until you are 10m away, and then reduce the distance by 1m at a time. But you would only reduce the distance once you have got a perfect heel at the present distance.

K9: yes, however, some trning must be done with ducks as distraction before dog can be proofed with ducks.

[Staranais]

K9: as he has had success there in the past, he may not fully believe it, but he will learn that even an attempt is not worth it when there is another item that will come, right there.

I getcha, thanks.

[slim1]

Im trying to this prey drive with boofhead more so for the reason that he learns abit of self control. I dont know if im doing it the right way.

What i do is get his favorite sqeaky ball & work him up into abit of a frenzy. I stop & most times he sits automatically & if he doesnt I position the ball so he gets into a sit. I then release him & throw the ball. Am i on the right track?

I havent started to drop him or heel as i want him to know that to get the ball he has to sit.

K9 i would love your input in getting me on the right track and moving on from the sit.

[Purple Julie]

K9: your avoidance training, useing ball as distraction. This in turn has raised her threshold to prey drive.

Is this a good thing?

It is interesting to see the difference in Jyra's behaviour - Today I tied her to the pole and played with the ball, and she was going wild, barking and carrying on. Then I let her loose, put her in a sit stay and played with the ball, and all she did was follow it with her eyes and I had it going quite close to her too. Then I released her and let her play with the ball and she was excited about it still. This is raising her self control and threshold and that's a good thing isn't it? But you don't think that this is the way to go to increase her self control with cats/ducks?

[Lablover]

Steve,

As you aware of my dogs (or at least the one you helped with his mouth issues), and the standards I require, what relationship does "willingness to please" have with training?

How I love training in drive especially starting with young pups. How I also wish I could put into words how I train differently nowadays, not so much what I require but how I do IT.

[Steve K9Pro]

Slim 1 :

What i do is get his favorite sqeaky ball & work him up into abit of a frenzy. I stop & most times he sits automatically & if he doesnt I position the ball so he gets into a sit. I then release him & throw the ball. Am i on the right track?

K9: yes, but I feel that you would benefit by using a key word to trigger your dogs prey drive, rather than him triggering off seeing the squeaky, this way, you wont always need the squeaky.

S:

I havent started to drop him or heel as i want him to know that to get the ball he has to sit.

K9: if he already knows the down command, it should be easy. Make sure he is confident that complying with the sit command will get him the ball.

Then afyter you have worked him up, give him a sit command, then hesitate for half ba second, this will elevate his drive through frustration a little, then give your drop command, you may need to bend over & place the ball between his front paws to get him down, when he goes down, throw the ball out in front of him.

Then work on him going down on command when this happens, throw the ball hard into the ground just in front of him.

When you have a reliable sit & down in drive, add some focus by asking the dog to stay for 5 seconds, then get the ball & extend the time etc.

Then start on heel.

***************************

I wrote "K9: your avoidance training, useing ball as distraction. This in turn has raised her threshold to prey drive."

PJ:

Is this a good thing?

K9: not for me to say, there is nothing wrong with it & its the way many trainers work. However, if your looking to train your dog using the drives she has, your going in the wrong direction.

PJ:

This is raising her self control and threshold and that's a good thing isn't it? But you don't think that this is the way to go to increase her self control with cats/ducks?

K9: yes, it will raise self control, just means you have a dog that prevents itself going into drive in AVOIDANCE of a correction.

It means what you are not doing is using the dogs drives to get the most out of her, which might I add is fine if you have no goals to use her prey drive.

If you wanted to have her retrieve, run send aways, any type of high energy work, you dont want to raise thresholds to prey drive.

If you just want an obedient pet, you do.

*************************************

LL:

As you aware of my dogs (or at least the one you helped with his mouth issues), and the standards I require, what relationship does "willingness to please" have with training?

K9: many people will disagree with me here, but I believe that the dog has no willingness to please its handler, UNLESS, 1. the dog feels that displeasing the handler will cause the dog discomfort, 2. the dog feels that pleasing the handler will get it drive satisfaction, I believe that dogs could care less how satisfied their handlers are...

LL:

How I love training in drive especially starting with young pups. How I also wish I could put into words how I train differently nowadays, not so much what I require but how I do IT.

K9: Now I have some questions for you....

Since working with Stamp, & now I believe that you train your puppies in drive, whats the difference results wise?

Before training this way, did you believe that better results could be gained (if they were of course)?

What have you noticed with the dogs attitude when training in drive compared to the previous method, which might I add was obviously successful..

(Note: Lablovers dogs are what I believe to be genetically drive superior to any pet dog you will find, she also spends countless hours working her dogs doing what ever it takes, including training with a broken leg lol, to get results, so her results may not equal others results)

I tell any client interested in this method that, it does produce superior results if you have the dog with the drives & nerves required, but, it is strenuous, very physically active, you need think fast etc etc.

[Lablover]

I typed a huge CONFUSING response and just before I hit the the reply button, became caught up on the telephone and lost the lot.

K9: Now I have some questions for you....

Since working with Stamp, & now I believe that you train your puppies in drive, whats the difference results wise?

As I was using your suggested exercises/drills with Stamp and having pondered on any negative effects by trying them (and finding none) I also used them on my other older dogs.

Stamp to my delight, after the first night was returning to me, even after mutiple sends (at short distances 40 yards- 50 repetitions -probably more, we were having such a great time together it could have been 100 LOL) and recalls, like a dog possessed. He was jumping up at my face not in aggression but in um er happiness/drive. He is a normally a very happy dog that night I could not help notice the extra strut in his stride.

After a couple more days on the exercises he continued to improve, his grip on the dummies became gentler. The remote dropping of the retrieve was an issue at first, as he had been trained never to drop any article. The remote drop was "trained" in our loungeroom separately with no distractions and no retrieve involved. I slowly introduced this concept in the yard. As you suggested, I did not focus on a perfect front finish which also took a few days. He anticipated the fun bumper, and popped (stopped) on the way to (known) blinds, I would either wait him out or reinforce my back command, so his popping resolved.

After a couple of days I fell over and injured myself in our front paddock - send offs at 100 yards in length each - BTW Steve - do you think by Stamp having time by length let him think about his actions more?(co incidently while doing the exercises LOL - dangerous stuff) and as a result could not try this new brilliance in our normal off site training paddocks, which may have been the best for Stamp as many repetitions could be applied to resolve past habits.

I will leave a gap here, but am happy to return to our progress, if you and others would like the breakdown of the following 6 weeks.

At Stamps next All Age competition, (remembering that he had damaged every bird at his last trial 2 months prior), he was great. He continued to return to me like a rocket - many times like he had done in training where I feared he would and did crash into me. His mouth continued to be stable. His manners at the starting line were a little loose - (he did not break but certainly crept), as a result of his extra keenness (ANOTHER SUBJECT please Steve - gaining extra confidence???) but have been working hard for balance again. I was VERY+++ happy as I had been told, by others, his mouth problems would not be curable.

During my extended period on crutches I had the time to also use, as mentioned, your ideas on my older dogs even though they had good soft mouths and returns. I loved seeing the dogs different responses and I think I learnt a lot by having other dogs.

All their attitudes which were good prior improved during training. When confusion resulted in a drill or exercise I was trying to teach, it was wonderful to take them away from formal training, move to an area in a paddock, create/make drive and regain what I call a suicidal desire.

The pups. Wow. I have never been a big on corrections. That being said, it is easier for me as I start with baby puppies and bad habits have not been formed. I used food as lures and to keep focus in the past. Since training in drive with the pups, by me spinning in circles and training basic obedience it has been interesting to say the LEAST. The pups already knew the concept of sit, but having the pups in drive and the pups knowing, for their good responses, how quickly a retrieve would be added had them begging as never before, and they were keen prior, otherwise I would have washed them. Boy did I become dizzy so many times by spinning in circles, having three pups!!!!

I will continue my post, on a new thread, as I am scared to lose what I have typed so far. Maybe everyone is bored?????? already.

Edited September 22, 2005 by Lablover

[dogmaster]

K9: dogs can take quite a high correction in full drive, modern collars dont go high enough to blast a dog off a chase, it takes some time to teach the dog how to focus & turn low stim off, not overcome pain.

Absolute rubbish...all quality e-collars matched to the breed of dog, can stop any dog in chase...not that I advocate that method of training..... try a Dogtra 1100 or 1200 or 2000 or a PAC DXT with AXC collars...all will stop the largest breeds in full prey drive. Of course if you are talking about a cheap Innotek or Petsafe unit...of course it will not work.

[MonElite]

dogmaster - just to clarify.....

Why would anyone want to use a extremly high stimulation on a dog when excellent training can be achieved with low stim ones such as the cheep Innotek ones????

another question - do the collars you mention go low enough?

With a statement like that you just add to the bad reputation of ecollars - was this your intention??? its not the tool its the user - what kind of a user of that tool are you?

BTW welcome to DOL. Care to share some info about yourself and your dogs on the Welcoming Mat?

Edited September 23, 2005 by myszka

[Lablover]

Before I continue boring everyone, and having not even completed Steve's first question, am I making sense?

[MonElite]

dogmaster - Oh just read your 2 posts on DOL - somehow I get the feeling you have some underlying agenda, please correct me if Im wrong.

[MonElite]

Lablover - perfect sense

[Kavik]

Unfortunately, I am still not having as much success as I had hoped with training in drive. I am having problems keeping Diesel's interest, sometimes he will not even look at the prey item! It is very frustrating. When he is interested it is great, but he is not consistently interested, and if we're out and about on a walk, there is just about no way it works. In class, I am using prey drive to success in breaks from exercises, getting him to drop in drive, and when I release him, but not so much at other times.

So until I can figure it out more, I am still mainly using food.

[MonElite]

Kavik - my low prey drive dog has somewhat developed a need for chasing that ball on a string..... if mine can do it yours can as well.

Why dont you practice with him in a familiar places (dog park he knows) where there are no other dogs around so he is comfortable there.

I got OH to be with me, we threw the ball between each other for a while, let the dog do whatever it wanted to do and ignored him, within minutes it got bored with sniffing around and two of us playing was a better option. We were having fun laughing, running around etc, he was bored after sniffing the whole park....

We let him chase the ball betwen us untill he was half dead, and he hardly got the ball to catch.

Maybe try that - it worked for a 6yo low prey driven Rexy.

And one day he just clicked. I cant even tell you how it happened, just went from black to white almost overnight. And let me tell you I dont train a lot

[Lablover]

One day I am going to learn how to multiple quote, heck for that matter a single quote!!!

K9 question to me:

Before training this way, did you believe that better results could be gained (if they were of course).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a little confused on the question sorry.

Do you mean training in drive or using force methods?.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After my experiments with my older and young dogs, I developed my own crazy test (copied loosely on Schutzhund trainer videos - Bernhard Flinks).

By doing so, I think my screening of future puppies has merit, not of course testing water attitude or marking ability, both of which is vital in higher competition stakes, but testing of drive when young.

BTW, a dear friend whose GSP is very hard mouthed who I showed the simplified drill version, was found practicing them by her caravan before a trial. Her dog dropped every bird that day. Rush rush rush. Why do we all try to rush?

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

At Stamps next All Age competition, (remembering that he had damaged every bird at his last trial 2 months prior), he was great. He continued to return to me like a rocket - many times like he had done in training where I feared he would and did crash into me. His mouth continued to be stable. His manners at the starting line were a little loose - (he did not break but certainly crept), as a result of his extra keenness (ANOTHER SUBJECT please Steve - gaining extra confidence???) but have been working hard for balance again. I was VERY+++ happy as I had been told, by others, his mouth problems would not be curable.

K9: the beauty of drive is that it's almost unbreakable, & seeing a dog work in full drive is quite a thing, regardless of the excercise...

I guess until you try everything, we cant say what is & what is not cureable...

I might ask, from how long had he been marking birds, then how long had you tried to fix it, then after starting the prey drive drill, how long was it until the all age where his mouth was good?

[Steve K9Pro]

DM:

Absolute rubbish...all quality e-collars matched to the breed of dog, can stop any dog in chase.

K9: I guess it depends on your training methods, I find it unusual though that you would match a collar to a breed?

I have found examples of every breed to fall into the very soft temperamented categorie to the very hard.

Im not a person that chooses the collar by the weight of dog or its breed. I choose collars based on the amount of levels & availability of ultra low levels of stimulation.

I do believe that a collar can stop a dog in a chase, however I believe its still done with low levels & training rather than pain.

DM:

try a Dogtra 1100 or 1200 or 2000 or a PAC DXT with AXC collars...all will stop the largest breeds in full prey drive.

K9: I actually have a 1200NCP, which I feel is a great collar, though I still use it right at the bottom end of the scale.

I can wind the dial to full stimulation on my arm, & although its fairly unpleasant, if motivated I would walk right through it.

I have also seen others using the 1200 who did try & blast a high drive GSD away from stock, the dog continued, although vocalising all the way until I took the remote from him.

The 2000 I believe has the same levels of stim as the 1200 & I personally feel that the 1100 starts to high for any type of focussed training.

DM:

Of course if you are talking about a cheap Innotek or Petsafe unit...of course it will not work.

Kp: I havent used the Petsafe units at all, but I feel that these days Innotek make a good reliable product.

I, again of my own personal opinion, believe that there are three main players in the electronic collar market, Dogtra, Tri Tronics & Innotek.

I will also say that is the order I believe they fall into in terms of quality.

I always tell people that too but when weighing up what to buy, one strong consideration is that Innotek do have an Australia based company that can warrant the units if you have any issues.

I do feel since the introduction of the digital units, the Innotek product is quite good.

There are still many trainers who feel that low stim collars are a waste of time as the dog issue high enough levels of stim, but that is not the way I train..

You might also look back in this thread & see that someone did mention that the did high stim their dog in a chase & it did not deter the dog, although the dog did vocalise.

I feel that "remote pain" is a poor guide for the dog, remote communication is a lot better.

[Steve K9Pro]

K:

Unfortunately, I am still not having as much success as I had hoped with training in drive. I am having problems keeping Diesel's interest, sometimes he will not even look at the prey item! It is very frustrating. When he is interested it is great, but he is not consistently interested, and if we're out and about on a walk, there is just about no way it works. In class, I am using prey drive to success in breaks from exercises, getting him to drop in drive, and when I release him, but not so much at other times.

K9: In the small amount of time that I spent with him, I can tell you thaqt with persistance, he will find enough focus to work, but I will say he is a little borderline as far as drive goes.

He also seemed a little "controlled" if you know what I mean? he seems to hesitate going into drive, some other parts of your training may be working against you there.

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

Do you mean training in drive or using force methods?.

K9: sorry, I meant, when you first seen the work I gave you, did you think that following them would help?

LL:

BTW, a dear friend whose GSP is very hard mouthed who I showed the simplified drill version, was found practicing them by her caravan before a trial. Her dog dropped every bird that day. Rush rush rush. Why do we all try to rush?

K9: lol, I guess its called desperation...

To be honest, what I gave you isnt a drill I have used a lot, or ever really, I just came up with it when I saw what your dog wanted.

It's lucky you have the skill to interpret it & make good use of it.

My time with you was short, I usually am lucky enough to spend at least 2 hours with those working a problem like this, then see them again in 2 months, so I am really proud of the results you have achieved....