Prey Drive And Control

[Purple Julie]

I have learnt a bit about training in drive, but I don't know how to get Jyra to the point that she would be able to walk off lead along the street and not chase a cat or bird, etc. (ETA: Although I wouldn't walk her off lead anyway for that reason and even if she had control, I believe all dogs must be on lead, so I would have a lead on at all times anyway!)

I must be doing something wrong. Now, here are two scenarios that actually happened, and I would like input on how you would train in drive to manage these situation in future.

1. I was walking Jyra and there was a cat very close to us, amazingly it didn't bolt, but Jyra was very interested in it and pulling towards it. At this stage, Jyra wasn't in a command position, so I told her to sit and she dropped. I didn't correct her because she was in drive peak and to get her out of the drop would only get her going for the cat again. Now, now that I had her in a drop, I was in a bit of a pickle, because she was about 1 metre away from the cat, and as soon I release her, she's going to go for the cat. So, how would you get out of that situation??

2. I was walking Jyra, and she was walking VERY well on a loose lead to the point where I didn't really need to be holding the lead. Noneless, I was holding the lead, but didn't have a tight grip on it, when all of a sudden, a dog approached us from behind, which Jyra noticed, but I didn't ( :D off lead dogs in front yards on Sundays ). So Jyra bolted after it and pulled the lead right out of my hand before I knew anything. I called "no", I called "drop" and no compliance to anything. Her drive was too high to respond.

So, I learnt to have a vice-like grip on the lead at all times even when Jyra is walking beautifully because you never know what'll happen, but even so, if I was holding the lead well, Jyra would have chased the dog till she hit the end of the lead, which wouldn't take long, but how would you train a dog so that when they are just walking, not in a command position, it will not chase when stimulated?

Today I tried something new, so hopefully she won't cross the road in prey drive. Jyra knows that she is not allowed to cross the road without our permission. So today, I got her all revved up about the ball, and I had her on the long lead, so I positioned the lead so that if she crossed the road, she would get a correction pretty quickly. I threw the ball across the road, and Jyra went over the boundary, so she got a correction and 'no'. Then I made her sit on the nature strip and stay while I got the ball, which she did well. I played a bit longer, and she seemed to accidentally cross the road one more time, and she got a 'no' and ran straight back to the nature strip. But after that, she would fully put her brakes on whenever the ball was over the road.

So, I managed to get a good bit of control in prey drive there!

Edited September 15, 2005 by Purple Julie

[Lablover]

Hi Julie,

I am confused by your post, nothing new in that for sure, as I am commonly in a state of confusion.

For a start how did you begin training in drive without distractions? Did you start asking for control while encouraging drive close to you with a ball on a string or tug toys?

[Kavik]

I'll give question 1 a go :D

So your dog is in a drop 1 metre from a cat. What I would do is heel the dog in the opposite direction so she doesn't get a chance to chase the cat. Keep it nice and happy and bouncy. Then reward when away from the cat.

Not sure about 2 and haven't tried anything like your road example.

[Greytmate]

In scenario 2, what makes you think it was prey drive? There are many reasons why a dog would bolt after another dog. You haven't told us what your dog did when it got to the other dog, so it makes it hard to work out why she did, and how to stop that. It might even be a leadership issue.

What did you do in scenario 1? Or is the dog still in the drop position now? :D

[Staranais]

Scenario 1: If you were fairly confident she'd stay in the drop till you released her, couldn't you shoo off the cat yourself, then release her? Just an idea.

Scenario 2: I'm also wondering why you thought this was prey drive. I don't know much about drives, but unless the she was seeing the other dog as a prey object, I wouldn't have said that was prey drive.

[Steve K9Pro]

PJ:

I was walking Jyra and there was a cat very close to us, amazingly it didn't bolt, but Jyra was very interested in it and pulling towards it. At this stage, Jyra wasn't in a command position,

K9: as she was pulling toward the cat, she was commanding you.

So I told her to sit and she dropped. I didn't correct her because she was in drive peak and to get her out of the drop would only get her going for the cat again.

K9: she wasnt in drive peak, she was in drive initialisation, she complied with the commands as she felt that you would allow her to have the cat if she did.

Now, now that I had her in a drop, I was in a bit of a pickle, because she was about 1 metre away from the cat, and as soon I release her, she's going to go for the cat. So, how would you get out of that situation??

K9: by not placing her in the drop but walking her past in a heel.

PJ:

I was walking Jyra, and she was walking VERY well on a loose lead to the point where I didn't really need to be holding the lead.

K9: which means that she understands the command.

Noneless, I was holding the lead, but didn't have a tight grip on it, when all of a sudden, a dog approached us from behind, which Jyra noticed, but I didn't ( grr.gif off lead dogs in front yards on Sundays grr.gif ). So Jyra bolted after it and pulled the lead right out of my hand before I knew anything.

K9: which means she isnt trained to walk on a loose leash under distraction.

pj:

I called "no", I called "drop" and no compliance to anything. Her drive was too high to respond.

K9: now she was in drive peak.... calling her only teaches her she doesnt have to comply....

Pj:

So, I learnt to have a vice-like grip on the lead at all times even when Jyra is walking beautifully because you never know what'll happen, but even so, if I was holding the lead well, Jyra would have chased the dog till she hit the end of the lead, which wouldn't take long, but how would you train a dog so that when they are just walking, not in a command position, it will not chase when stimulated?

K9: by training her under distraction, by providing that same level of stimulation & keeping her in your control.

[Purple Julie]

Lablover:

For a start how did you begin training in drive without distractions? Did you start asking for control while encouraging drive close to you with a ball on a string or tug toys?

I have been using a ball on a string. I can throw the ball and have Jyra in a sit-stay without chasing the ball until it has landed and I choose to say "go", then she will go and get it. I did that with her other toys this morning. I think I might need to work on this a bit more.

Greytmate:

In scenario 2, what makes you think it was prey drive?

Amhailite:

Scenario 2: I'm also wondering why you thought this was prey drive.

Mainly because Jyra chased it! Perhaps there were other drives involved there also.

Greytmate:

You haven't told us what your dog did when it got to the other dog

The dog ran up a driveway and reached a dead end, turned around and went the other way, as did Jyra in her chase. As I had run halfway up the driveway, I caught Jyra as she was running back down it in pursuit of the other dog. Thank goodness!!

Greytmate:

What did you do in scenario 1? Or is the dog still in the drop position now?

She got up out of the drop and pulled toward the cat. The cat backed off and we walked the other way.

K9: she wasnt in drive peak, she was in drive initialisation, she complied with the commands as she felt that you would allow her to have the cat if she did.

Yes, see that is where my confusion lay. I guess as you and the others said, I should have commanded a heel away from the cat.

K9: now she was in drive peak.... calling her only teaches her she doesnt have to comply....

So with Jyra's level of training is there anything that I could have done to get her to comply?

One time I let Jyra off lead at an off-lead park, when I shouldn't have (hindsight is a great thing!), and she bolted after another dog. The owners were all freaking out and carrying on, so I had to yell really loud, "Jyra, NO!" for her to hear me, and instantly, she turned around and ran straight back to me! When she got to me she grovelled and crawled on the ground. So, somehow she responded that time!

K9: which means she isnt trained to walk on a loose leash under distraction.

K9: by training her under distraction, by providing that same level of stimulation & keeping her in your control.

Ok, so would you say that the next time I see a cat, I consider it as a training opportunity and practice heeling/social walking on a loose lead, giving corrections for non-compliance?

I hope you can all cope with all the cut and paste quotes!

Sorry for confusing you, lablover!

[Kavik]

I would treat the cat as a training opportunity. I treat everything as a training opportunity

My dogs are both fine with cats, although Zoe does like to chase them (but she listens to me around cats) - Diesel is only curious.

[Steve K9Pro]

PJ:

I have been using a ball on a string. I can throw the ball and have Jyra in a sit-stay without chasing the ball until it has landed and I choose to say "go", then she will go and get it. I did that with her other toys this morning. I think I might need to work on this a bit more.

K9: you need to aqdd the drop & drop stay then the heel to her "drive commands". Then you can heel by things in drive if you want to.

PJ:

She got up out of the drop and pulled toward the cat.

K9: what did you do?

PJ:

Yes, see that is where my confusion lay. I guess as you and the others said, I should have commanded a heel away from the cat.

K9: or passed it, depending on your level of training.

PJ:

So with Jyra's level of training is there anything that I could have done to get her to comply?

K9: corrected her when she broke the down stay.

PJ:

One time I let Jyra off lead at an off-lead park, when I shouldn't have (hindsight is a great thing!), and she bolted after another dog. The owners were all freaking out and carrying on, so I had to yell really loud, "Jyra, NO!" for her to hear me, and instantly, she turned around and ran straight back to me! When she got to me she grovelled and crawled on the ground. So, somehow she responded that time!

K9: she seen your tone of voice as an aversive & that extinguished her drive.

You might remembver how she responded when I took her by the leash, she returned respect to me as I gave her strong leadership.

PJ:

Ok, so would you say that the next time I see a cat, I consider it as a training opportunity and practice heeling/social walking on a loose lead, giving corrections for non-compliance?

K9: if you are training avoidance yes, if your training in drive no. Training in drive means that you will need to teach her heel in drive before using it.

[herding_guy]

Julie and everyone,

this is a very interesting thread. However I am getting very confused by your terminology. You are all talking as if there is only one drive and nobody has really talked about the drive in question. I am assuming we are talking prey drive.

When I am training my dogs I am mostly training in prey drive but I also use the other drives to shift the dogs focus off the prey and back to me. To do this I need to shift the dog into defence then to pack. Not easy when we are talking pure predatory animals like a hard a#*e herding dog.

To heel a dog away from the sheep he needs to be shifted from predatory to pack through defence as heeling with alpha is not a behaviour conducive with predatory drive. The only way to do this is to move the dog into defence whilst adding a cue. However I could heel the dog toward the sheep but he would be orientating (eyeing) the sheep not me and he would hardly be in a classic heelng stature.

K9, you mentioned in one of your posts about Julies correction extinguishing drive, what drive? to me this is shifting drive from one to another through defence as mentioned above.

Maybe I'm missing something here

Julie you will see prey drives at there peak when you put Jyra in with sheep if we didn't try to control her but lets not go there :p

Dave

[Staranais]

To heel a dog away from the sheep he needs to be shifted from predatory to pack through defence as heeling with alpha is not a behaviour conducive with predatory drive.

But if the dog thinks that obeying the command to "heel" can earn him a chance to satisfy his prey drive, then isn't he heeling in prey drive?

Just saying this as when I tell my dog to "heel" his face lights up and he springs to attention, since he knows he's just been given the chance to earn a tennis ball.

[Steve K9Pro]

HD:

this is a very interesting thread. However I am getting very confused by your terminology. You are all talking as if there is only one drive and nobody has really talked about the drive in question. I am assuming we are talking prey drive.

K9: yes we are talking prey drive.

HD:

To do this I need to shift the dog into defence then to pack

K9: defence???

HD:

To heel a dog away from the sheep he needs to be shifted from predatory to pack through defence as heeling with alpha is not a behaviour conducive with predatory drive.

K9: Defence is a survival mode for the dog, I cant see how you feel that you should be shifting your dog into defence for just about anything, but perhaps you use different terms than I do.

The dog can be heeled away in full prey drive if the dog is trained to believe that you provide prey drive satisfaction. The other option is to correct the dog out of prey drive, extinguish drive & put the dog into avoidance so that it may comply with the heel command out of drive.

There is no defence there...

HD:

The only way to do this is to move the dog into defence whilst adding a cue.

K9: Im not sure what exactly your doing, but I can tell you that it's not the only way, there is no one way to train any animal.

HD:

However I could heel the dog toward the sheep but he would be orientating (eyeing) the sheep not me and he would hardly be in a classic heelng stature.

Then the dog would be controlling (reducing) its own prey drive in avoidance of a correction, it would also not see you as the path to prey drive success, but a limiting factor of success.

HD:

K9, you mentioned in one of your posts about Julies correction extinguishing drive, what drive?

K9: In julies case, it's prey drive, howver, corrections reduce all drives..

************************************************************

A:

But if the dog thinks that obeying the command to "heel" can earn him a chance to satisfy his prey drive, then isn't he heeling in prey drive?

K9: yes thats correct.

A:

Just saying this as when I tell my dog to "heel" his face lights up and he springs to attention, since he knows he's just been given the chance to earn a tennis ball.

K9: yes the dog has paired or chained in the heel command with ending in prey drive satisfaction.

[Staranais]

K9, this isn't my thread, but may I ask a question? It's probably a dumb one, sorry.

A: Just saying this as when I tell my dog to "heel" his face lights up and he springs to attention, since he knows he's just been given the chance to earn a tennis ball.

K9: yes the dog has paired or chained in the heel command with ending in prey drive satisfaction.

I should qualify this to say that he will heel really nicely under most distractions, since he's quite focused on earning his tennis ball. But to be honest, I'm not sure whether I could heel him past ducks without correcting him (reducing his drive).

If he felt he had the choice, I think he'd much prefer to try to get a duck than earn a tennisball. He has quite high prey drive (for a pet) and has had the satisfying experience of mauling ducks in the past, so if duck was on the cards I don't know if the chance to earn a tennis ball would hold his attention in quite the same way.

What is best to do in this cirumstance, when the dog knows that the prey object you have to offer him isn't nearly as exciting as the prey object he could gain from non-compliance?

I'm not keen on keeping a duck under my jacket to present to him for correct heeling, though I guess that would work really well!

Is this just a matter of working him near ducks, and making sure that he never ever gets a chance to chase them again?

Thanks heaps.

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

If he felt he had the choice,

K9: training under distraction is allowing him to make that decision & fail when he makes the wrong decsion.

Train him in prey drive so that he "understands" that he will 100% guaranteed get his prey item (the ball) if he heels. This is taught under low distraction, if he attempts to get the ball by jumping etc, he gets no success & meets a correction.

When he has a good heel in prey drive it's time to add distractions.

He should be given the opportunity to make his decision to chase ducks, or heel with you, each time he makes the wrong choice, he meets no satisfaction & correction, same training as when there was no distraction.

I think he'd much prefer to try to get a duck than earn a tennisball.

K9: when he is taught that the chances of getting the duck are zero plus it brings a correction his way, he will change his mind.

He has quite high prey drive (for a pet) and has had the satisfying experience of mauling ducks in the past, so if duck was on the cards I don't know if the chance to earn a tennis ball would hold his attention in quite the same way.

K9: so it will take a little longer..

What is best to do in this cirumstance, when the dog knows that the prey object you have to offer him isn't nearly as exciting as the prey object he could gain from non-compliance?

K9: you also need to look at your thinking... "the prey object he COULD gain"

You also believe that he has a good chance of defeating you, this needs to change, lol.

You need him to believe that the only way to get drive satisfaction is to do it your way, he "will" get the ball, & he WONT get the duck, take drive satisfaction where you will get it, not where you wont....

[Staranais]

Thanks K9, that makes a lot of sense.

If he honestly believes there is no chance of getting a duck, I guess it will make sense to him to work for the tennis ball instead. I will work him around distractions, and make it clear to him that going for the duck is not an option to satisfy his prey drive.

I guess my only concern is that he's not a stupid dog, that no matter how well trained he gets on leash, when I finally get around to working him off-leash around distraction he's going to realise the rules have changed and will probably try to beat me. And if the leash is off I really will have no way to physically stop him from chasing, or effectively correct him for chasing either (Remote collar corrections for this won't stop him, I have borrowed one and tried, and he is just so crazy that even a correction that would make me yelp is totally ignored when he sees a prey object like a duck).

Thanks again for spending the time.

[MonElite]

Am - ecollar is your answer. But it needs to be tought the right way ( that I got from Steve) and it will work.

Yes I also suffer by having a smart animal that full well knows the difference between the leash and no leash.

try long line dragging for a while, he will have to get used to it and will forget that its dragging after a while.

Basically I went through a period of ecollar plus long line.

[Purple Julie]

I was trying to train Jyra under mild prey drive distraction the other day. What I did was heel Jyra around the lounge room, with mum throwing the ball around a lot. If Jyra went for the ball, she got a correction. Then I would release Jyra and let her get the ball and she was thoroughly excited about it.

I have also done this with sit stays and drop stays. At training the other day, I had Jyra in a drop stay and I played with the ball with heaps of movement, going fairly close to Jyra and she stayed in position. An observer would have thought she had very little prey drive until they see me release her. When I released with "go", she's right into doing aerial acrobatics to get the ball.

So K9, how would you analyse this situation. Have I reduced her prey drive? Have I changed her threshold? Have I done something with avoidance?

PJ:

QUOTE 

She got up out of the drop and pulled toward the cat.

K9: what did you do?

We went the opposite direction.

K9: she seen your tone of voice as an aversive & that extinguished her drive.

So, why did she not see my tone of voice as aversive in the other scenario that I mentioned.

Amhailite:

this isn't my thread, but may I ask a question?

Certainly! And thank you for that, K9's reply was helpful for me too!

K9, regarding your reply above to Amhailite's post, I found that very helpful, and would just like to expand on that. I can switch to the duck example, Jyra loves them too! 'Cat' or 'duck' can be interchangeable terms in my posts!

I was just going to ask how do you get the dog's drive for the ball higher than the desire for the duck because they NEVER get the duck, so they've got to be more desparate for it. BUT it seems that you have just answered that!

Train him in prey drive so that he "understands" that he will 100% guaranteed get his prey item (the ball) if he heels.

Would you reward with the ball after every release from the heel position? Or would you do it on a variable intermittent frequency?

In addition to what K9 said, I think (K9 can correct me if I'm wrong) that after you've done what K9 has said and have the heeling for the ball under low distration down pat, then when you go to the lake, river where the ducks are, start heeling your dog 50m away and reward with the ball, then reduce that distance 10m at a time until you are 10m away, and then reduce the distance by 1m at a time. But you would only reduce the distance once you have got a perfect heel at the present distance.

[Staranais]

Thanks Myszka.

Am - ecollar is your answer. But it needs to be tought the right way ( that I got from Steve) and it will work.

I believe you - but no point me trying an ecollar until I have learned another way of using it. I have borrowed one and tried it simply as an aversive for this type of thing, and have learned that if there is a prey item on offer my dog ignores the collar even on the highest setting, even if we are 100m away from the prey item (yes, he is NUTS). So I'll take a raincheck on the ecollar for this problem, until I know more about training and drives. I'd rather keep my dog on leash for a while longer than muck him up with using an ecollar incorrectly.

Try long line dragging for a while, he will have to get used to it and will forget that its dragging after a while.  Basically I went through a period of ecollar plus long line.

He's currently on longline whenever he's offleash and not in a fenced area. (His recall is excellent EXCEPT when there's either entire male dogs or particular prey items close by... very annoying.) But like I said, he's not that dumb - he's fast learning the difference between longline and no longline.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Amhailte

[Purple Julie]

He's currently on longline whenever he's offleash and not in a fenced area.

Ha ha! That's a bit of a contradiction in terms isn't it!!

An oxymoron!

[Staranais]

Depends on your definition of "offleash", I guess.

He's dragging the long line behind him - I'm not holding it.