Thoughts From The K9 Force Workshop

[sidoney]

I went along to this workshop not sure what I would experience, as discussions I had seen were based on "drives", and drive theories (originating mainly from psychodynamic theory) are a quite small and decreasing influence in psychology. And training is massively to do with psychology.

However from Steve's posts I could see that he was a knowledgeable and effective trainer and so I went along interested to see what I would learn.

What I learned was, I think, very valuable. Behavioural training (and behavioural psychology) regards the brain as a "black box". It works only on behaviour. While it is very useful, what lies outside the paradigm are cognition and emotions, and these areas are tremendously important.

Part of what Steve described to us, I think, is a useful working theory of the part of emotion in canine learning. He has an approach that influences emotional states in the dog in a way that maximises training effectiveness and dog effort. As behavioural theories leave out emotion, they cannot directly address this aspect of training.

What Steve described fit in well with the theories I am currently working with of emotion. Emotion is a theoretical area that has been rapidly developing over the last 3 or so decades. Note that this is POST behaviourism - which was the dominant approach for some time but is no longer.

Before I go any further I'll describe a simple model of a current and dominant theory of emotion.

Situation -> appraisal -> feeling or affect -> action

The whole of this is the emotion. Emotions involve behaviour. Very simply, some emotions we like to have and try to have them more, while some emotions we don't like and try to avoid them. The situation, the way the situation is appraised, and the associated action, are all subject to influence (say, by the trainer). How would this model work for dogs?

Situation: let's say, a park full of dogs.

Appraisal: different dogs would appraise this differently. Dogs that like to play would appraise it as a situation in which play is available and may become excited. Dogs that have been attacked would appraise the situation as dangerous. Let's develop the second one further. Note that appraisal doesn't have to be reflected on; it can be or become automatic.

The feeling would be the feelings associated with "fear" (although "fear" as an emotion is the whole construct). So, perhaps heart beating, shivering, fast breathing, a feeling of discomfort.

Action can be expressive action, that communicates the feeling state. For example, raised hackles, ears flat, closed mouth with tight lips. The instrumental action would be whatever makes this dog feel more comfortable: perhaps running away, perhaps attacking, perhaps standing still. Note that the feeling of greater relative comfort would be the "reinforcement", in behavioural terms.

The way this emotional model would be applied to a human would be much more complex as there would be greater social influence and cognitive activity. Also, there are differences in dogs and humans in other aspects, for instance, I don't get excited or aroused at the thought of chasing and catching an object, while in many dogs this is a very strong instinct. Overall dogs have more instincts than humans. There are also commonalities. Fear and anxiety are emotions that could be described as similar in a number of ways in humans and dogs.

For this description, a simple one at this stage, let's run with the dog model. I won't try to apply this directly to the theoretical part of what we learned at the workshop; I'll let people make their own connections. I believe that there are connections.

So let's take the fear-aggressive dog as an example. This is a dog that appraises a situation as dangerous, feels an uncomfortable feeling, and attacks and relieves the feeling.

Steve described a number of ways that one can address this. Modifying the situation, modifying how the dog behaves, and desensitising. You can see how plainly this accords with this model of emotions. Modifying the situation: well that's an obvious link. Modifying how the dog behaves: that is modifying the action part of the behaviour. One is still likely to see the expressive action but may change the instrumental action from one of lunging to one of standing still, or walking quietly with the trainer. Desensitising: that is modifying the appraisal part of the emotion. By a process of taking the dog into situations where it can reappraise the sitation as less dangerous or not dangerous, one can modify the "feeling" part (and the associated action as the uncomfortable "fear" feelings are not occurring).

This is only a simple overview of how I see what I learned about dog training as fitting into current psychological theory. Obviously it can be expanded more than this (and I've been thinking about more than this but I can only type so much). All night and all morning it has been running around in my head and I needed to put it down so I can think about something else!! LOL!!

And I'd also like to say thanks to Steve for giving me a way to access something that is absent from behavioural theories of training. And to Monika for organising it. I'll be wanting to increase my knowledge in this area.

BTW, I was so engrossed in thinking on the way home yesterday that I don't recall whether there was a lack of speed signage between the turn onto the main road and the speed camera, or whether it is there and I just was so focused on my thoughts that I didn't see it. I noticed a flash of light and realised I'd been pinged. If there was a lack of signage I'll contest it. If it was just me not seeing, I'll wear it. Is there signage or not?

Edited September 10, 2005 by sidoney

[MonElite]

Sidoney - there is a sign..........

So do I gather from your description of the fear agressive dogs there was some improvement seen after I left? What I shame I couldnt stay, I hope that its on the video what I missed.

I have done step 1 of desentization process with Steve and Kayne and it was simple if explained properly and shown properly. Right tools, knowledge etc and the stuff really does work. I think I need some more confidence in myself ..... as well as I need a team of a person and dog that will help in the process....

I have to say that I was very pleased with Rex yesterday, not only he wasnt "eating" any dogs, but I dont think that he growled at all, plus he did some very nice long stays for me without being a nuisance.

Plus this morning we were attacked by a JRT on a mission, and although I had to run and somewhat pull Rex with me, he didnt actually lounge at the offender, just growled big time, hackles up big time etc. And than when the JRT ended up on lead I could let Rex off lead and he just completly ignored the little one, despite the fact that JRT was still growling and carrying on.

I had a stressfull morning walk, but in a good way, I achieved 100% of what I wanted. Each comand to come despite the carrying on JRT was 100% obeyed, etc.

I was very happy, although had eyes around my head wide open all the time.

I hope that everyone enjoyed the workshop and learned something.

[sidoney]

There was an improvement in behaviour, reduction in lunging, etc. Of both the fear aggressive and the highly reactive dogs. Both dogs better with Steve than with their owners - they have a long history of lunging with and being able to drag their owners, but there was improvement with their owners too and I can see that if the owners persist that it will continue to improve. The detailed description of the desensitisation programme will come in useful for them. I will use it too, as my girl is a bit reactive.

Gosh, what an eventful morning you have had. Good to hear that you achieved what you wanted to. I achieved what I wanted to as well. Bought a martingale collar and had a nice loose leash walk with my Kelpie, including past a lunging Min Schnautzer - although there was some hackling on my dog's part. I need to get her out more and see more dogs - as I mentioned above.

Argh about the signage and speed camera ... oh well. It's been many years since I had a fine, suppose it had to come to an end some time. I was just so full of thought that I was driving on autopilot.

Edited September 11, 2005 by sidoney

[MonElite]

Oh remebered something :D each time Im at Steves I learn something, I have heard what he presents several times now, but yesterday the theory of inflation kicked in for me

So I went out at night yesterday with Rex and played ball, he is obseesed about that ball now...

I used to do a sit, down, sit and a bit of a stay before I threw it again. but yesterday I did the usual, than a heel (OMG how good was the heel) than a minute stay (he was shaking like leaf all the time) then throw.

I did about 30 mintues of training, and no more than 10 throws.

Rex was soooooooo tired when we came back as if he had run 20 km

So today I did a heeling pater nas in Novice before the throw, than that plus slow pace followed by the throw.

Tonight Im going to attempt to do the whole Novice healing paters off lead before I throw the ball.

[Shakti]

Wow! Another awesome day where I came home with my brain absolutely full of new knowledge. This is probably the fourth or fifth time I have seen Steve and I *always* have at least one *lightbulb* moment when something suddenly clicks for me that hadn't before. This weekend it was the necessity for all three parts of the equation to be present ie Bond, Control and....quick, who remembers the last one?? (a quick test to see who was paying attention LOL)

Thanks so much Monika for organising this; I hope my very shaky video has been able to capture the outstanding improvement in the two lunging dogs after just a few moments. Thanks again to Steve for sharing his knowledge with us so generously and for always making me feel like there *are no dumb questions!*

[sidoney]

quick, who remembers the last one

Who needs memory when you have detailed note taking!!

So says someone with a shocking memory. :D

3. Desensitise.

PS. I can be such a show off.

Edited September 11, 2005 by sidoney

[Mana]

Who needs memory when you have detailed note taking!!

Those of us with revved up labradors need all we can get....

I missed a lot of what happened in the afternoon and didn't get a chance to take notes at all, so I'm looking forward to having a look at any of the film people are willing to share... (I wouldn't have brought Ruski if I'd known he'd put on such a perfomance - I'm sorry if he drowned out any important bits!) Would be happy to try and cut some of the film together if people'd like me to have a go at it...

Ended up buying one of the collars Steve demonstrated on Ruski - not something I would have anticipated coming away with but it certainly focusses him on me and doesn't seem to bother him at all.

I found it quite disconcerting to see him so worked up yesterday - he got to the point that he had almost lost his voice and was squirting diarrhoea...

But then thismorning we had a relaxed and enjoyable offleash run in the dog park, met plenty of new dogs and there was no hint of any agitation... I guess the tension grew for the dogs over the course of the day.

If anyone has notes or film they'd be willing to share, I'd really appreciate it.

[Shakti]

Well done Sidoney! I had such a good time and it was lovely to meet so mnay DOLers and their dogs. Now if I can just match the *real* names with their DOL names LOL

[MonElite]

Mana, I will give you the tapes and you can practice some of your skills.

Im hopeless with names, sorry, who was the tall lady that left early. She taped the first part we could combine the films with her. Maybe its not one of the DOLers...

we will see.

I have that part taped from a workshop before but its on a VHS tape now, so I guess we cant do much with that....

[MaxSpots]

myszka Posted on 11th Sep 2005 - 05:17 PM

I have to say that I was very pleased with Rex yesterday, not only he wasnt "eating" any dogs, but I dont think that he growled at all, plus he did some very nice long stays for me without being a nuisance.

I didn't even realise he was agressive Myszka, and here was I watching him and thinking what a perfect dog

sidoney Posted on 11th Sep 2005 - 05:24 PM

The detailed description of the desensitisation programme will come in useful for them. I will use it too, as my girl is a bit reactive.

Darn I missed the desensitisation programme, (I was waiting at the top gate for hubby to pick me up, of course he was 1/2 hour late I should have come back down) Oh well, more questions to ask Steve

I thoroughly enjoyed the workshop and learnt so much stuff, I'm still trying to sort it out in my head, my notes are shocking

I didn't mingle much as I was worried about my snappy dog, but it was great to put some faces to names, sorry I didn't get to say Hi to everyone.

(I was the lady in the purple shirt with the tan kelpieX)

Thankyou Myszka for organising it, and Thankyou Steve !!

Brilliant day !!

[Tarka]

Well done Sidoney! I had such a good time and it was lovely to meet so mnay DOLers and their dogs. Now if I can just match the *real* names with their DOL names LOL

Same here; I'm still not sure who's who. For the record "Tarka" (me) = Steve = the guy with the demented German Shepherd.

I'm still mentally digesting all the stuff we covered. It was interesting to see prey-drive in action, although I'm still not sure how I'll go about integrating it into the life of a city dog.

[MonElite]

myszka Posted on 11th Sep 2005 - 05:17 PM

I have to say that I was very pleased with Rex yesterday, not only he wasnt "eating" any dogs, but I dont think that he growled at all, plus he did some very nice long stays for me without being a nuisance.

I didn't even realise he was agressive Myszka, and here was I watching him and thinking what a perfect dog ;)

@ perfect dog

Do you remember in the first part and the first drawing Steve does? what is the first thing? Is a "tick". Well I guess I have that under control :D I know what ticks him, and from how far away. :p Oh and I guess I have learned not to miss the body language signs, before he goes into the big circle ;)

Apart from that yes he is perfect

[MonElite]

For the record "Tarka" (me) = Steve = the guy with the demented German Shepherd.

I'm still mentally digesting all the stuff we covered.  It was interesting to see prey-drive in action, although I'm still not sure how I'll go about integrating it into the life of a city dog.

Ruby is not demented she is lovely, full of drive that is not satisfied...

As to integration of prey drive into a city dog - seen Rex recently? especially when at the club with Benny - Casimas GSD when they :fetch: ? thats how prey drive is integrated into city dogs. Well at least we try.......

Remember the black lab in your last class, the 8yo one? After I gave the owner the ball and the long lead - that is a perfect example for you.

I have to say that Im happy that Rex and Ruby got on fine, you might decide to join us for some after training walks one day.

Edited September 12, 2005 by myszka

[Latisha]

Hi All,

Kristy here (the one with the Ridgeback cross Tisha who I am sure you all noticed). My hands are recovering and I KNOW I will get results. Already, Tishy has been more responsive to me.

I know what the major problem is now....it has been my confidence. I get so worked up around other dogs / people that I have inadvertently taught Tish to be the way she is. I will let you know my progress as I go along.

It was lovely to meet you all and I am very sorry to some of you all if Tish got too close (especially to Monika - your dog was amazing when tish nearly backed up on him, he did seem to even raise an eyebrow).

I will write more later, I had better do some work now.

PS. I think Tish and I had the best sleep of our lives on Saturday night, I was red raw and she was buggered too. Jumping around all day might have led to that conclusion.

I just thought I would ask the people with the video cameras, are you able to do copies? I am willing to pay for the tapes etc.

Kristy

[pgm]

What I learned was, I think, very valuable. Behavioural training (and behavioural psychology) regards the brain as a "black box". It works only on behaviour. While it is very useful, what lies outside the paradigm are cognition and emotions, and these areas are tremendously important.

Sidoney, interesting post, and one that I agree with. It highlights the essential aspect of behaviorism that is most flawed: its failure to take the internal states of cognition and emotion into account. Essentially, it takes an external viewpoint to the dog and completely leaves out the most important element: the internal relationship between the trainer and dog.

Another way to put to it is that it ignores and/or dismisses the social relationship between trainer and dog. As I myself use a traditional method of training it is a subject that always gets me going for the reason that behaviorists have always been inclined to dismiss traditional trainers as overly sentimental and naive. This is precisely because of the language that such trainers use to describe the process of training. What behaviorists (and those influenced by them) fail to appreciate is that the language used by traditional trainers (often dismissed as anthropocentric) is spoken from within an internal perspective concerning the training relationship between trainer and dog. Behaviorism views this relationship from an external perspective and hence dismisses the language of traditional animal trainers as sentimental and/or naive.

The idea that animals think and have emotions and that these factors have a huge bearing on training is something that animal trainers have instinctively known for thousands of years. Check out Xenophon's Art of Horsemanship for an ancient example.

I must admit it gets up my goat whenever people unthinkingly accept science as being cutting edge just because it is science. The idea that we know so much more about animals and training them now is laughable in face of the fact that the role of cognition and emotions in training is a relatively new idea in science.

Had scientists consulted and taken seriously those that spent their lives working and training animals we might have avoided the farce of behaviorism and the nonsense that is still being preached in its name.

[MonElite]

It was lovely to meet you all and I am very sorry to some of you all if Tish got too close (especially to Monika - your dog was amazing when tish nearly backed up on him, he did seem to even raise an eyebrow).

Kristy, Tisha is a girl, they can back up to Rex any time he really enjoys this part of his life as long as they dont want to eat him, and they are a large female he will immiediatelly fall in love. Guaranteed. I just didnt give him an opportunity to find out if he is going to be eaten or is it the time to fall in love

[Steve K9Pro]

S:

And I'd also like to say thanks to Steve for giving me a way to access something that is absent from behavioural theories of training.

K9: Most welcome, I'm glad that I was able to help complete the picture.

Brooke:

Thanks again to Steve for sharing his knowledge with us so generously and for always making me feel like there *are no dumb questions!*

K9: Hey Brooke, always welcome.. Nice Shepherd pup BTW... I got aq kick out remembering one of the success stories I was "going" to tell was about you. lol..

MS:

Darn I missed the desensitisation programme, (I was waiting at the top gate for hubby to pick me up, of course he was 1/2 hour late rolleyes.gif I should have come back down) Oh well, more questions to ask Steve

K9: no problems, I try to answer every email I get even when they cross the 1500 a day average, lol.

MS:

Thankyou Myszka for organising it, and Thankyou Steve !!Brilliant day !!

K9: most welcome, it wont be the last workshop, just the last one this year in NSW.

Tarka:

For the record "Tarka" (me) = Steve = the guy with the demented German Shepherd.

K9: I didnt see any dementure, remember what you see as a problem, I see as POTENTIAL. Your puppy has a lot of potential, given direction they can be a very capable dog. Training in drive is exactly the method I use for gaining high control in cities, places to train are a little limited though. Just be sure that what ever goals you have, Ruby at first glance seems to have the requirements to exceed them...

********************

K9: thanks everyone for your kind words, a couple of things I would like to mention whilst I have the spotlight...

1. I would also like to thank Myszka, as we all should. This is the 4th workshop she has hosted & I can tell you no money has changed hands.

I am so busy, I would not have had the time to put in the time to organise all of the attendants, so she volunteered . Without her, they would not have been run.

She does this and many other dog activities for the love of the animal. As all of you can see, she has put in a huge effort with her Dobe Rex & everyone, including my wife, wants him...lol...

So again a big thanks Myszka..

2. These open workshops are really a big question & answer session, where if you have an isolated problem you may spend the day listening to solutions to everyone elses problems. Each workshop has been run with a large percentage of the people coming from DOL etc, everyone has been extremely patient with each other & each others dogs, well done.

I run these things with no pre submitted anything, I dont even know who is coming before I walk out at start time, just how many people for catering calculations.. I answer all the questions on the fly & they dictate the direction of the day. Im glad you all got something from it.

3. As mentioned, this is the last one for 2005 I'm running at home, I have one more open workshop Im doing in Victoria in November & 2 closed ones for commercial LE clients.

I really have very little time left this year. However, we have such a huge response to these workshops, so many people enjoying attending & others want to attend more, we plan on putting on many more in 2006.

We have strong interest in Qld, Victoria & Tassy, plus many NSW people wanting more info.

I intend running a few dedicated workshops that will be topic specific, things such as dog aggression, training in drive, advanced use of the remote collar, behaviour problems etc etc are all under the heading of most likely workshops to be run...

I will try & keep you all posted when they will be on, & the topics covered, & I'm always interested in feedback on what you would like to learn about.

As I explain, I dont follow any method out of a book, most everything I do is something I have put together myself, based on experience, practability, testing & common sense.

I find these, based on the people I consult withs results, the fastest & easiest way to overcome training & behaviour problems.

Finally, all of you should know this, any dog that attended the last or any of the 4 that Monika has run have even come close to some of the dogs I have worked with in terms of bad behaviour, there was no dog that even come close to annoyng for me there on Saturday, so dont feel bad about any way your dog reacted.

Some of the dogs I used provided excellent examples of how these methods can be almost instantly effective..

Thank you all once again. Steve

[Tarka]

:D Ruby is not demented she is lovely, full of drive that is not satisfied...

Yeah, I know I was very glad when Steve took her and said she is basically fine, just frustrated; she's become a real handful with other dogs in the street recently. I think Ruby may be getting an special collar as a Christmas "present" ...

As to integration of prey drive into a city dog - seen Rex recently?    especially when at the club with Benny - Casimas GSD when they :fetch: ? thats how prey drive is integrated into city dogs. Well at least we try....... :p

I certainly try that. At the weekend we go to an off-leash park in Leichhart where she can chase the ball and meet other dogs (that's done wonders for her confidence). However during the week it's a bit tougher; we're right next to Sydney park (one of the reasons I considered having a dog at all in Sydney), but she's taken to jumping on random people, which means I can't let her off leash, which make it harder for her to chase things.

Remember the black lab in your last class, the 8yo one? After I gave the owner the ball and the long lead - that is a perfect example for you.

I didn't really see properly, I think I was busy keeping Ruby under control Was this just short throws and walking-to-fetch like you were doing with Rex on Saturday?

I have to say that Im happy that Rex and Ruby got on fine, you might decide to join us for some after training walks one day.

Yeah, that would be cool.

[zero]

Hi Steve

Can I ask the details of the open workshop that you are doing in November in Victoria?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: now that this one is done, I am going to work on the Vic one, date should be 18th November though. Probably near Beaconsfield.

Thats all I have right now.

Will be posting a new thread soon about workshops.