Shiloh Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 (edited) Hello, My 13 week old pup has been showing periodic signs of aggression, usually when I try to pick him up and he doesn't want me to. The backstory is that I have been taking him to puppy school, where I was advised to "sin bin" him for bad behaviour- in addition, if he is pushy/bitey in his play, to put him in a submissive position until he submits. We followed this advice, but it was THEN that he became aggressive. I think it was due to not liking being picked up to be sin binned, and he reacted fearfully. On the other hand, he seems a confident dog in play situations with others, and certainly has no fear of coming up and biting my pants legs if they look tasty..... I'm confused. I feel like the relationship between me and the pup has been damaged, but am not sure if it's because I'm not a solid enough leader or if he thinks I'm a bully! I am thinking of consulting a behaviourist, but want to speak to one with experience with Vizslas. Any advice is appreciated. Edited September 1, 2005 by Shiloh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 The backstory is that I have been taking him to puppy school, where I was advised to "sin bin" him for bad behaviour- in addition, if he is pushy/bitey in his play, to put him in a submissive position until he submits. We followed this advice, but it was THEN that he became aggressive. You put him in a submissive position until he submits and then he gets aggressive? What do you do then? What do you mean by putting him in a submissive position? I have a male Vizsla, but I don't really know how to advise you. It never really occurred to me to be picking up my dog. But I would certainly do something about his reluctance to be handled - it can easily develop into a more serious problem, such as biting. Here are two leadership exercises: Yielding, everytime you walk past your dog get him to move out of the way. You do this by slowing walking into to him and at the same time saying 'move'. Keep moving until he moves out the way. In about week he should be moving out the way at the sound of 'move'. Sitting on the dog: put your dog on lead and drap the lead over a chair and sit on the lead, give him just enough lead to lay down comfortably next to you. The key to this exercise is to say nothing whatsoever to the dog, completely ignore him no matter what he does. If he barks or complains ignore him. If he starts chewing your pants then give a very loud 'OUT' correction and then completely ignore him. Read a book, work on the computer, watch tv but do not pay him any attention whatsoever. Keep him on lead for 30mins and do not let him up if he is whinging until you have at least five minutes of quiet. This will help with your leadership issues, but I would seek out an experienced trainer for his aggression problems. An aggressive vizsla is not the norm, they are generally very affectionate, so do something about it now before it escalates. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 The Hungarian Vizsla Club of NSW has a website at www.vizsla.org.au. There are contact details for Vizsla people on it. One of the club's functions is to help out Vizsla owners with problems. Oh and there are some great social events too. If you contact the club they will be able to point you in the right direction. Also, I'd advise joining, if you are not already a member. Lots of benefits for Vizsla owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 PGM, He would submit after being put into a submissive position, but he never growled or went for my hand until after we adopted this and the sinbin technique. He only does it to me, and it is not an every day kind of thing- only if he does not want to be moved. He is generally a beautifully behaved dog, but full of energy and kinda "picks" on my son. We all make sure to go through doors first, make him stay for his food... Sidoney, I will got to the vizsla site- thanks for posting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOE Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Oh poor you and poor puppy are you sure he does not have a tender spot, and it hurts when you pick him up, I have had 4 Vizslas and not one of them was like that but I never had to SINBIN mine either, maybe he is just trying you out. All the Vizsla puppies I have had have been pushy and grabbing you is part of puppy play, I obedienced trained them but they were not what I would call over the top. I agree with Sidoney go to the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 Hi Shiloh, I aso recommend contacting the Vizsla club for some advice. It is very hard to tell from just a few posts here what is going on and if it's within 'normal' full on, into everything Vizsla behaviour, or something you really should be concerned about. I have two Vizsla boys and my older boy was labelled 'dominant' by a certain instructor at our local club as a young dog which IMO is absolute rubbish. I also had issues with the puppy class instructors I took my younger boy to who didn't know how to handle the bouncy, lively pup I had (on the other hand my older boys puppy class was fantastic!). Perhaps give your breeder a call too. They should always be there for adivce. isaviz also hasa good point, physical issues may need to be ruled out too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 Oh isaviz, boy do I feel stupid. He has an umbilical hernia....I could be straining that, although I usually pick him up supported front and back. By now he probably senses my own fear that I am not training him right and that makes HIM afraid of my lack of clear leadership.... The sinbinning was advised for persistently harrassing my son until my son inevitably got hurt from a nip on the ear, scratched face, etc. Perhaps this was normal puppy behaviour and my son was too sensitive. We as a family are incredibly inexperienced dog people, but we all want to live up to our gorgeous pup- I am sending out feelers for a different trainer and may get someone to come to the house to educate the family and also to let us know what we are doing wrong, right, etc. Thank you for the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 When you say submissive position, exactly what are we talking about? Holding the dog in a drop, or an alpha roll while clasping the dogs muzzle and staring in the eyes? Also, what occurs when you sin bin the dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 (edited) Keep him on lead for 30mins and do not let him up if he is whinging until you have at least five minutes of quiet. 30 mins is way too long to expect a 13week old pup to stay pinned down for...even five minutes is pushing it IMO, he is already reacting fearfully/aggressively about being forced into positions- this may make it worse, or teach him that fighting the lead is ok. All that he will learn is frustration. Puppies this age are rarely knowingly dominant, but what they *are* doing is being a sponge, observing and taking note of who holds the power with their new pack...he may be trying things out to see where he stands. Instead of sinbinning him, try some puppy massage, learn how to relax him, remove him from potetially excitable situations with your son and redirect him to an activity more appropriate such as a stuffed kong or a pigs ear etc. Observe how your son is interacting with the pup- is it nice calm play? Or could your son be agitating your new pup by something he's doing? Be sure to supervise the play session then redirect your pup or son lol when play is getting out of hand- both child and pup need to learn how to interact with each other...it's not ever one sided with dogs and kids. A good book would be 'Dogs and Children' by Kaye Hargreaves you can get a copy from Natures Creatures Another great article is It takes a pack to raise a puppy! Bottom line is- if what you are doing to your pup causes fear or aggression- STOP DOING IT- you never want a pup to learn that their human is scary or unpredictable, never force a pup into a drop or an alpha roll. If you are unhappy with the puppy school- don't go back and find a more positive one, you need to live with your dog for the rest of it's life, if you are unhappy with the instructor then just don't return there. I never use sinbins in my puppy shools, I empower the owners to use redirection and massage, this is real communication and a tool that you can take with you once the dog becomes an adult. Mel. ETA: Vizsla's are real smarty pants!! :D They are gorgeous dogs when they know the rules and have some basic manners. Another link is Nothing in life is free you can start that straight away with your pup. And another link! :D Positive training clubs NSW Also browse the training pages at K9 Events- should give you some articles on dogs and kids. Edited August 27, 2005 by StaffordsRule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 You guys are great- SO glad I found this board! In answer to the submissive position, it sounds like it was an alpha roll.... we haven't used it on him, or the sin bin technique, for a few days. I've contacted the Vizsla club and received a great email full of information- it is such a relief to know that we are getting on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 The alpha roll is an overtly aggressive act, rarely necessary and has the potential to cause negative contingencies like fear agression and dimish the dog/handler bond. I think sin binning is an appropriate punishment for pups if you have tried ignoring the dog when she mouths and she continues to do it, but i would not advocate the alpha roll, or doing things like staring at the dog as punishment for the majority of dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 Just an update.... our pup seems to be warming back up to me- I am using positive reinforcement and a bit of puppy massage or "calm" hands. I took him to the park and he consistently came to me when I called in spite of other more interesting things going on. I took that to be a good sign, as he had a "smile" and his tail was wagging when he got to me! We are still avoiding sin binning him for now- he hasn't really done anything worthy of it, and I am shy of initiating that punishment again. The NILIF idea seems to engage him as well- making him sit to come in from doing his business, a sit-stay for food, sit for a cuddle, etc has been working out too. They are things we did before, but now applying it more consistently and consciously. I will still have a chat to a Vizsla friendly trainer to ensure I am training myself properly just for my own peace of mind, but the many positive suggestions from this board already seem to be having a good effect. Gratefully yours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOE Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Shilo that is great please do not do the sinbin thing at all, he is only a baby and dont forget to get his hernia fixed. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 that is great news and big treats to you for trying another approach dogs are really forgiving of our mistakes arent they.. By focuusing on the things he does right you will go a long way to building a strong relationship keep up the good work Have you tried playing round robing recalls with the family each taking turns to call him and treat him with food and cuddles then having the next person call also playing hide and seek with his favorite toy keep it somple first and get someone to hold him then later when he stays well its a great little game and good for the kids to play yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 (edited) Shiloh:Â The NILIF idea seems to engage him as well- making him sit to come in from doing his business, a sit-stay for food, sit for a cuddle, etc has been working out too. They are things we did before, but now applying it more consistently and consciously. My emphasis (in bold) on the word "consistently" in the above quote ...... aaahhhhh, 'tis music to a trainer/behaviourist's ear Some people just don't realise they cannot only MAKE a pup by instructing in its early training/socialisation, but they can BREAK them as well. Glad your pup is getting over it. Keep up the socialisation (to unfamiliar dogs/pups, unfamiliar people and all other worldly things such as noises, different surfaces etc - all the stuff he'll come in contact with during his lifetime). Edited August 28, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 Well, I spoke too soon. He is growling low and baring teeth again when I try to pick him up. I don't think it is a pain reaction. Certainly need professional help with this. I have just sin binned him, only because I don't know what else to do when he acts aggro with me. This is the first time I have done so since the initial incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Shiloh, You don't just need professional help. You need qualified, experienced, behavioural help. You need someone to evaluate what is happening and to help you through these issues. Forget the Dogtechs and Barkbusters - they won't be what you need. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Certainly need professional help with this. Sounds like it Shiloh ;) Better to get onto it now. Take poodlefans advice and seek someone qualified and experienced. The Vizsla club again may be able to help point you in the right direction for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 I have been referred to someone by the Vizsla club who is supposed to be fantastic with Vizslas, but I have have to cross my fingers that she has time for us as she is excellent so therefore in demand. I am sad, but he really is a good dog in all other ways- he just needs me to get help in understanding what is going wrong. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 (edited) When he gets aggro with you, my first advice would be to WALK AWAY. You don't need confrontation and depriving him of your attention is probably more effective anyway. You might like to read these: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/attitude.html http://www.flyingdogpress.com/aggressionbasics.html http://www.flyingdogpress.com/leadership.html The author of this articles subscribes to the school of thought that maintains that if you 'get physical' with your dog as a training method, you should prepare yourself for the fact that some dogs will feel the need to defend themselves from such tactics. I wonder if the warning growl (a good thing by the way) you are getting is in some way related to the "submissive position" you were taught to place him in. It may even be a defensive resposne. He may also be anticipating the sin binning. Some dogs, even pups simply won't tolerate that kind of behaviour. Do a search on the alpha roll here on DOL and you'll soon discover that its a form of discipline that belongs to the dark ages. Here's the question. Would it be easier, say for example when he is mouthing you (perfectly normal in a pup) for you to pick the pup up and put him away or for you to leave him? I'd highly recommend you instil methods of discpline now that you will use on your dog for his entire life. You certainly won't be picking him up all the time in a couple of years time. My advice, regardless of the motivation for his behavior, is at this point in time NOT to get physical with your pup as a precurser to discipline. He's going to be a big boy when he grows up and he needs to learn to see you as a leader because of your brain, not your brawn. I'd say this is one dog that I would steer clear of 'jerk about' forms of discipline. Learn to harness that Vizsla brain in a positive way and I think your relationship with this pup will benefit. In the meantime, get some knowledgeable professional advice. ;) Edited August 29, 2005 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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