Punishment/negative Reinforcement/both?

[Staranais]

Hmmm, so you're basically giving the dog numerous small corrections, like repeatedly hitting the nick button on an e-collar? So it is a form of negative reinforcement, since when the dog has complied with the command, you stop correcting him, right? Sort of like using an e-collar, but without having an e-collar.

Is this in the learning stage, or the proofing/correcting stage?

[pgm]

Amhailte, I have never used a prong collar so I would only be guessing. But here is how you might go about smarting up a dog's response to a KNOWN command. The sit for instance. You correct the dog for the sit at the same time as you give the command. Or you give the command and then immediately apply the correction without waiting for the dog. This would speed up the dog's response - assuming of course he understands the command.

But that's only guessing - don't really train that way myself, or at least I don't think I do.

[Kavik]

My example is in the learning stage (as you are physically placing the dog into the sit).

In the training/correcting phase or to speed up the response, you would do what pgm suggested.

[Staranais]

But doesn't that give the dog a kind of negative feeling towards the command, since he doesn't understand why he's being corrected?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against correcting a dog who understands a command and is choosing not to obey. But I'm concerned that correcting a dog if he does not understand why will just give the dog a bad attitude towards the work.

Edited to add - sorry pgm, for some reason I thought you used that method too, don't know why.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Amhailte

[Kavik]

We'll have to wait on K9 for that one

That is pretty much all I know about it!

[Staranais]

K9, help!

[pgm]

But doesn't that give the dog a kind of negative feeling towards the command, since he doesn't understand why he's being corrected?

Amhailte, are you referring here to the ecollar or prong? I am a little confused. If its the ecollar then the answer is no: or at least the negative feelings do not last very long. Why? Because what you are actually doing is teaching the dog how to turn off the ecollar (one is not correcting the dog at this stage).

It can take about five minutes to teach the recall using the ecollar. After that you are only applying stim for non response - at this point you can call it a correction.

[Staranais]

No, not referring to the ecollar. I have nothing against using e-collars, as long as it is low stim. I like the way an e-collar can be used to make it crystal clear to the dog when he's done the right thing. I'd probably call low stim ecollar more of a communication device, rather than a correction device.

It's the prong that's confusing me - I've used a prong collar on myself, and would definately call that a correction. I just don't see how you can prong a dog continuously and have him retain a happy attitude towards his work.

Do I make sense now?

[Denis Carthy]

Deleted due to mistakes.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Staranais]

Negative reinforcement means the removal of anything an animal (humans as well) experience as causing some level of discomfort (no matter how small). A negative reinforcer reduces a behaviour....a positive reinforcers increase a behaviour.

No offence Dennis, and not trying to start a bunfight here, but I don't think your definitions of positive reinforcement/negative reinforcement are particularly accurate. In OC, a reinforcer (negative or positive) is something that increases the frequency of a behaviour, not decreases it.

It's not that important, just that if you intend to join the discussion, it's better if we all understand what eacg other is talking about.

[Denis Carthy]

Amhailte

No offence Dennis, and not trying to start a bunfight here, but I don't think your definitions of positive reinforcement/negative reinforcement are particularly accurate. In OC, a reinforcer (negative or positive) is something that increases the frequency of a behaviour, not decreases it.

Denis

Yopur quite right, glad you pointed it out, I knew I hadnt time between breakfast toast, phone calls and going out late I should not have ppsted, anyway I will delete it and come back when my imds free, intersting posts here though.

[Erny]

Perhaps threat is the wrong word then.  I don't think Erny means that the dog crawls through heeling, dreading the possibility that he will be punished.  If the dog fully understands what earns punishment and what doesn't, there is no need for him to dread or fear anything, since he has the choice whether to be punished or not.

Perhaps a better word is 'possibility'.  The dog understands that there will be a possibility of punishment should he fail to keep in the heel position.  Therefore he makes the choice to stay in heel position, since he knows this will mean he is not punished. 

(Correct me if I'm wrong, Erny.  Not trying to put words in your mouth.    )

DOLers will really start to believe I AM pm'ing you and getting you to post for me! Thanks Amhailte ... yes, you delivered a good explanation.

As mentioned a couple of posts earlier or so, the problem with posting messages is that one person can put more emphasis or a different meaning into another person's words.

PGM .... Imagine if I was under pressure to get somewhere really fast ... for example, the airport - assume I was running late and if I missed my plane I blew my overseas trip.

Imagine also my thought process if I knew I'd lose my licence if I got caught speeding and that getting caught was a good probability - assume I need my licence for employment purposes and that I'd be losing my job if I lost my licence.

The "threat" (or "possibility", as Amhailte so appropriately worded it) of the latter would be negative reinforcement - that's what stopped me from speeding. But the fact that the "threat" of the punishment (ie negative reinforcement) is there, doesn't make me dislike driving because I know how to avoid the punisher (ie loss of license). And I made my plane anyway (release & positive reinforcement).

I wish this story were true .... :p

Edited August 24, 2005 by Erny

[K9-Nutter]

PGM .... Imagine if I was under pressure to get somewhere really fast ... for example, the airport - assume I was running late and if I missed my plane I blew my overseas trip.

Imagine also my thought process if I knew I'd lose my licence if I got caught speeding and that getting caught was a good probability - assume I need my licence for employment purposes and that I'd be losing my job if I lost my licence.

Wow Erny, do you have any more stories where that one came from

BTW guys, this discussion has been most interesting, I haven't joined in because each time I think about it, one of you manages to get in first and say something along the lines of what I was thinking :p So for now I'll just sit back and enjoy....

[Erny]

Wow Erny, do you have any more stories where that one came from

BTW guys, this discussion has been most interesting, I haven't joined in because each time I think about it, one of you manages to get in first and say something along the lines of what I was thinking So for now I'll just sit back and enjoy....

:p I teach .... I guess I've learnt to put a 'human' analogy to some things to get the gist understood. Works for the students - helps them remember things ~ but I tend to lose the more dog savvy kind!

Must admit my imagination went souring when I got onto the "catching a plane and going on an overseas holiday" bit ..... pipe dreaming I'm afraid ...

Glad you enjoying, K-9 Nutter ... please feel free to join in anytime ..

[pgm]

Erny, nothing wrong with your description. But consider this, your description of wanting to get to the airport is similar, at least in idea, to the way I use distractions (to tempt the dog) but I am not using distractions and/or corrections in order to dissuade or prevent the dog from disobeying a command (although that is oviously part of the exercise) rather I am using them to focus the dog's attention on the job at hand.

You are thinking of the punisher (or the possibility of the punisher or correction) as motivating the dog not to do something - but the point of using distraction and corrections (at least in the way of think of them) is to motivate the dog into doing something, namely the task at hand. Perhaps it is a subtle distinction, but one I think of as important.

I have heard of riders explaining before taking their horses onto a jumps course that they will take their horse over one of the easy practice jumps just before competition. But they will delibrately approach the jump casually so as to make the jump slightly awkard for the horse - this focuses the horses attention and concentration for the much larger jumps in competition.

I use distractions in the same way, to increase behavior - not discrease behavior. People will find this hard to believe, but practising heeling for instance, I try to make things difficult for my dog, trying to catch him out - this works to increase his drive and motivation.

I don't think of corrections as decreasing the likelihood of disobedience (though of course this will be one of the benefits) but rather as a means of increasing motivation. It works, you can see it ín the dogs response...

Of course, this only works to increase motivation if the dog already understands the command and depends a lot on how you have taught heeling in the first place. I certainly would not recommend this approach based on the way many people teach the heel.

Edited August 24, 2005 by pgm

[Staranais]

I use distractions in the same way, to increase behavior - not discrease behavior. People will find this hard to believe, but practising heeling for instance, I try to make things difficult for my dog, trying to catch him out - this works to increase his drive and motivation.

I get you, I think. Your dog has to focus harder on heeling, since he knows you're going to be tricky and try to catch him out, and he wants to avoid the correction.

You're increasing the behaviour (of focused heeling) by adding the possibility of correction. Hmmm, very interesting.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Amhailte

[pgm]

yes Amhailte, that's correct. It is almost a ritualized form of play. Like when you see a couple of dog's rough-housing, the jumping, scruffing and playbiting are all part of the game and serve to motivate and keep the dog's interest.

Part of it is probably the desire to avoid the correction, but it is also the desire in a way so to speak, to win the game. My part is to try and catch him out, his part is not to let me. And of course, he wins the overwhelming majority of the time. On lead, he is very difficult to catch out.

[Staranais]

So what does he get if he wins, pgm? Or is it just the satisfaction of playing the game?

Just asking since some training isn't inherently fun for a dog in the same way that rough-housing is. If I ask my dog to heel, he's going to do it because he thinks there might be something in it for him (either the chance to earn a reward, or the chance to avoid a correction), not because he particularly likes the actual 'game' of heeling. If I stopped ever rewarding and/or correcting his heel, he would probably eventually stop heeling when I asked, since the motivation to obey me would be gone.

And even those activities that are inherently satisfying to the dog (like agility, retrieving, target games) aren't satisfying till the dog learns the rules. I normally think that the dog needs an extrinsic reward in the teaching phase, to keep his interest until he's learned the 'rules' of the fun activity. Do you differ?

Hope I'm making sense.

[pgm]

I normally think that the dog needs an extrinsic reward in the teaching phase, to keep his interest until he's learned the 'rules' of the fun activity. Do you differ?

In the teaching phase, of course. But my dog knows the rules of the heeling game very well by now. Even so, I still give a lot of encouragement during the game. But I use my voice and praise and petting, not food.

But then, having said that, the first week of training I did not utter a single word to the dog. This was the foundation which teaches the most important thing of all - attention to the handler.

[Staranais]

OK, I think get it. You still use an external reward in the teaching phase, and no corrections?

Then in the proofing/correcting phase, reduce the reward to verbal praise, and add in corrections to keep the dog's focus on the activity.

Have I got it?