Punishment/negative Reinforcement/both?

[Akitagal]

I am reading up on dog training and am a little confused on this.

Punishment is described as any event that follows a response and decreases its likelihood of occuring again. It includes when reinforcement or a positive state of affairs is removed.

Negative Reinforcement is described as occuring when a response ends or removes an unpleasant event, it increases responding by ending discomfort.

So when looking at the correction of a c.chain to teach heeling, is it seen as punishment or negative reinforcement?

If its focus is to get the dog to walk beside you and the use of the c.chain increases that behavior would it be considered negative reinforcement? or is it that its decreasing the behavior of lagging or straying from your side, therefore being considered punishment? The c. chain is not unpleasent when its just being worn, its only unpleasent when its actually "snapped" or being utalised. So heeling doesnt remove discomfort. But after a correction or a "snap", if a dog becomes aprehensive of being corrected then the heeling removes aprehension therefore removing an unplaesant state? Or the dog heels to remove the discomfort of the corrections so therefore neg reinforcement?

Is it both negative reinforcement and punishment??

Or has my brain now gone to mush from trying to figure it all out?

Sorry if i have used any incorrect terms i am new to this so am just trying to find my way. Any help would be most welcome!

Edited August 24, 2005 by Akitagal

[Staranais]

So when looking at the correction of a c.chain to teach heeling, is it seen as punishment or negative reinforcement?

If its focus is to get the dog to walk beside you and the use of the c.chain increases that behavior would it be considered negative reinforcement? or is it that its decreasing the behavior of lagging or straying from your side, therefore being considered punishment?

IMO you're adding something to the situation (discomfort) to decrease the chance of the dog leaving heel position in future. So I'd call it positive punishment.

If you choked the dog with the chain at all times, except when he was in position, I'd call that negative reinforcement. (You're taking something away, in order to increase the chance the behaviour recurs.)

Just my opinion.

[Kavik]

Using a check chain to correct a dog for incorrect position while heeling is Positive Punishment.

You are adding something (discomfort at the collar being tightened) to decrease a behaviour (not being in the correct position or not paying attention etc)

Negative Reinforcement would be that the stimulus that is uncomfortable would be present first, before you gave the command, and compying with the command would stop the stimulus.

If we use heeling as an example, the stimulus would be on from the start and would only come off when the dog is in the correct position.

[Akitagal]

There are types of punishment!! I havn't got that far so obviously much more to learn before maybe trying to fit it all together. Thankyou for your replies that has helped greatly.

[Staranais]

Haha, yes.

Basically, punishment is anything that decreases the chance of the behaviour happening again, whereas reinforcement is anything that increases the chance of the behaviour being performed again.

Negative means you take something away from the situation, positive means you add something to the situation.

So positive punishment is adding something to a situation, to reduce the chance the behaviour will happen again. For example, growling at a dog who jumps up is positive punishment, since you're adding a verbal aversive.

Negative punishment is taking something away, to reduce the chance the behaviour will be performed again. If you ignore a dog who jumps up, that's negative punishment, since you're removing a reinforcer (attention).

Then there's positive reinforcement, and negative reinforcement. These four are termed the four quadrants of operant conditioning.

Add extinction and classical conditioning, and you've got all the behaviourist theory you really need.

Make sense?

[Staranais]

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

[Akitagal]

Thanx Amhailte, that makes perfect sense. Would you mind if i printed a copy of your post to stick in my notes? as you have written it wonderfully! Is there much negative reinforcement used in dog training? I know its used a lot in horse riding/training. Sorry lots of questions but i am really enjoying and excited about learning about all this.

[pgm]

I don't exactly know how you are using the check chain, but using it the way I use it to teach attention and heeling it is negative reinforcement, not punishment either negative or positive.

[Staranais]

Of course you are welcome to.

Is there much negative reinforcement used in dog training? That depends who is doing the training!

Some people prefer to only train using positive reinforcement and negative punishment only, and will not use positive punishment or negative reinforcement at all. Other trainers use all four quadrants, to varying degrees.

Personally, I prefer to teach my dog new behaviours using positive reinforcement (R+) and negative punishment (P-) only. When I am certain my dog fully understands what is required of him, I will introduce positive punishment (P+) and negative reinforcement (R-) as a means of 'proofing' his behaviour. (This is done to ensure reliability, by showing him there are unpleasant consequences to disobeying commands, as well as good consequences for complying with commands.) In both the teaching and proofing phases, I try to make sure he earns a reward far more often than he earns a punishment, so that he enjoys the training and looks forward to it (this is a kind of classical conditioning, I guess).

However, like I have said, some trainers use P+ and R- right from the start. Others refuse to use P+ and R- at all. Different strokes for different folks, right?

[Erny]

Basically, punishment is anything that decreases the chance of the behaviour happening again, whereas reinforcement is anything that increases the chance of the behaviour being performed again.

Negative means you take something away from the situation, positive means you add something to the situation.

So positive punishment is adding something to a situation, to reduce the chance the behaviour will happen again. For example, growling at a dog who jumps up is positive punishment, since you're adding a verbal aversive.

Negative punishment is taking something away, to reduce the chance the behaviour will be performed again. If you ignore a dog who jumps up, that's negative punishment, since you're removing a reinforcer (attention).

Then there's positive reinforcement, and negative reinforcement. These four are termed the four quadrants of operant conditioning.

Add extinction and classical conditioning, and you've got all the behaviourist theory you really need.

Make sense? :D

Aaaaahhhh, Amhailte .... once again your poetic written explanations shine ..

[Staranais]

I don't know if you are being funny or serious, Erny, but I just nearly spat coffee all over my keyboard. I promise I wasn't trying to be poetic! :D

[Akitagal]

Hi pgm, i was just using as an example. Would you be happy to post how you use and thus how it is then negative reinforcement as opposed to positive punishment? As i said i am just learning about all of this. I can see how if you use the c.chain in different ways it may be considered then either neg reinforcement or positive punishment. If c.chain used to apply continual disscomfort until response of desired behavior made and then the discomfort removed then neg reinforcement. Dog is working to recieve release of discomfort. If used in a correction for not heeling positive punishment? Its then using the dogs desire to avoid the correction. Hopefully iv got that right!!

So if im understanding this then head halters/gentle leaders work on negative reinforcement??

Ps Thanx for site Amhailte.

[Staranais]

I'd probably call it both positive punishment and negative reinforcement, depending on how you look at it. The dog feels discomfort whenever he pulls, so dog pulls less - that's positive punishment. When he stops pulling and starts walking nicely, he stops feeling uncomfortable - that's negative reinforcement.

Those two quadrants often go hand in hand, since normally you have to apply aversive (i.e P+) in order to remove it (i.e R-).

More importantly, IMO, halters work by letting people physically control their dog using less force, since they have more leverage than a collar.

(Edited for accuracy, sorry! )

Edited August 24, 2005 by Amhailte

[Akitagal]

Hahahahaha.(have a pic of my brain saying what the hell are you doing to me Akitagal!) Ok i think im getting this! Yes your right its decreasing a behavior also. Bugga. My brain will catch up im sure! Thanx for your time Amhailte it is much appreciated.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Akitagal

[Staranais]

No worries

[Erny]

I don't know if you are being funny or serious, Erny, but I just nearly spat coffee all over my keyboard. I promise I wasn't trying to be poetic! :D :D

Was being serious, Amhailte. When you write your explanations, they just come out so beautifully arranged that you can't possibly help but understand them. Think I'll send my posts to you by PM and just get you to edit/re-write them before they get put up here! ;)

Now, I mentioned your writing being spot on ...... but I think you better go get a serviette and a flannel and wipe the coffee off the puter!

[Staranais]

Think I'll send my posts to you by PM and just get you to edit/re-write them before they get put up here! 

That's perfectly fine, there may be a small fee however... :D

(ETA: where are my manners today? thanks for the complement!)

Edited August 24, 2005 by Amhailte

[haven]

I agree with everything Amhailte said.

I also think that once the dog has learned the skill and is aware of the repercussions of non compliance, then staying in the heel command to avoid a punisher could be considered negative reinforcement. However, as I'm typing this I wonder......you're not actually removing anything although you could argue that you are removing the threat of a punisher but then if the dog continues to stay in the heel command you never actually remove the threat, although they do avoid it.

*we need a chin stroking icon*

I guess it depends on how you train the heel. If you use what some people refer to as 'active training' you give the command and use the correction before the dog complies, then wean off the corrections as the dog becomes reliable in response to the command. In that case it would be negative reinforcement as the dog avoids the punisher by staying in the heel.

The 're-active training' way though, if the dog leaves the heel position and gets a correction IE tension and release, I would call it + punishment.

Having worked with horses a lot and trained in natural horsemanship I know what you mean about - reinforcement. I would definately say that dog trainers don't use it nearly as much as horse trainers do (the ones that do it properly anyway, rather than using plain old +punishment eg if the horse won't get in the float, flog him from behind until he does).

Nearly all of natural horsemanship is negative reinforcement, not positive reinforcement as some people would have you believe.

That gets me thinking again on what exactly is "better" as a concept when we are talking about what is a 'humane' or 'kind' way to train an animal, but I won't get into that. It is way off topic and I have probably confused you and everyone with my ramblings enough already

A rather apt time to gove you some advice Akitagal: Especially while you are in the early stages of your course be very careful about where you obtain information, take everything with an open mind and don't take anything as gospel. It can be confusing as information becomes outdated, people have different opinions and some are just plain wrong. Although i must say you have chosen a good discussion group as Kavik and Erny have both done the course. Not sure about Amhailte, but she seems to know everything anyway!

Appologies for the very long post guys.

Edited August 24, 2005 by haven

[Erny]

I also think that once the dog has learned the skill and is aware of the repercussions of non compliance, then staying in the heel command to avoid a punisher could be considered negative reinforcement. However, as I'm typing this I wonder......you're not actually removing anything although you could argue that you are removing the threat of a punisher but then if the dog continues to stay in the heel command you never actually remove the threat, although they do avoid it.

I've pondered on this on more than one occasion.

In my mind:

The threat of the punisher becomes negative reinforcement. IE The threat the dog feels is removed because it didn't do the wrong thing. Similar to when we're driving on the roads. The threat of a speed fine is a negative reinforcement. The threat is removed when we've returned home and haven't sped (so we know we don't get the fine).

If the punisher is given because the dog didn't heel, then (as you'd be aware) it's positive punishment.

(Amhailte ..... where are you????? Wanna re-word this????)

[pgm]

I'd probably call it both positive punishment and negative reinforcement, depending on how you look at it.

Akitagal, I agree with Amhailte, what you call something depends a lot on how you describe it. Which is one of reasons that I don't care much for these kinds of discussions, it doesn't matter. What matters is what works, find what works and call it what you like. Besides, it doesn't matter how I interpret what going on - what matters is how the dog interprets.

People will disagree, fair enough, it makes for an interesting conversation. Mind you, I think Amhailte posted all anyone needs to know about operant conditioning.

The 'passive training' way though, if the dog leaves the heel position and gets a correction IE tension and release, I would call it + punishment.

But what do you call the 'release' part of the equation?