Selective Aggression

[Melisski]

Just had obedience classes, and despite what I'd convinced myself was a slight improvement in Diesel's behaviour - I think I was just in denial. He picked fights AGAIN today with a dog he previously got along with alright - so he's lost all privileges (my decision though, the club has no problem with him) and he's not being let offlead unless in very controlled circumstances, where I know the dogs and Diesel has proven his behaviour with them is acceptable (to me).

However, his on-lead behaviour HAS improved, so I'm hoping eventually this'll cross over and make an impression on him off-lead. I was able to get his focus when the corgis walked past (they're always late which makes it even more annoying, because just as I get him settled they're walking past again... and in general his behaviour and focus is definately improving - his last saving grace, I guess!

It's just frustrating knowing that you've raised a dog who's become a bully and it's probably not ever going to get better or be able to trust him. I know I should just except it but I was really hoping to get the all-round 'perfect' sociable dog like everyone else seems to have - but I guess I just really stuffed up along the way.

[Erny]

Melisski - part of this is about working Diesel at his threshold, his critical distance. In otherwords, the distance where he just orientates, but one step closer and he'd react. The other part of this is about getting his focus, doing little recalls, using his motivator to distract him and play with him, while working at that critical distance.

You say it's annoying when the corgi's are late .... you should be far enough away so that Diesel doesn't react. He might orientate on them, but because you haven't crossed that "threshold" distance, you should be able to distract him back to you, and that's when you give him good things (play, reward etc.). Make it so he learns he gets a "release" of tension by focusing on you, rather than by aggressing to the other dogs.

Ask people in the class to give you space so you can properly work on Diesel's issues, or, better, ask the instructor to announce this requirement to the class.

Each time he gets to aggress to other dogs, that behaviour is becoming learnt and more and more ingrained.

Teaching over the internet is not the way to go, and the above is not the be all and end all of it, but at least it might help you in the start that you're making. Always work for improvement, even if it's only a little improvement each time. Don't push too far too fast, although it's sometimes tempting to do so, especially when we're having a "good day". If Diesel doesn't react, don't go in closer in that session ... be happy to go home with him not having reacted. Slow and steady wins the race, as they say.

Having someone who really understands aggression and knows how to appropriately and properly train away from it would be the best thing for you both, but in the meantime, it sounds like you're doing your utmost to help Diesel. Good luck to you both.

[Zia's Nuthouse]

-It's just frustrating knowing that you've raised a dog who's become a bully and it's probably not ever going to get better or be able to trust him. I know I should just except it but I was really hoping to get the all-round 'perfect' sociable dog like everyone else seems to have - but I guess I just really stuffed up along the way.

Now Now don't be too hard on yourself. You are doing all you can, and believe me not everyone has "all round social perfectly sociable dogs". It has been stated in fact that dog aggression is one of the biggest problems facing many dog owners, and why they seek behavioural assistance/training to try and overcome it.

Don't be ashamed of him or yourself because he has aggression issues. You know you don't love him any less, and you will work through it as best you can. As many people on here have stated, sometimes you can do all the socialization in the world, all the training and still you end up with pooch god bless it That will just simply not like most other dogs.

I freely admit that my two absolutely don't like strange dogs at all.

They have a select few, friends dogs and family dogs that they get to play, romp and walk with, but strange dogs? pfftt forget it. So yeah you will accept it as he grows older and love him for who he is and whatever issues he might have But don't think you've failed him or yourself. Dogs have limitations, just the same as some people just don't like many of their own species ;)

Is that him in your avatar? He is adorable, look at that face.

Give yourself a pat on the back, give him a hug and don't be ashamed of him. Hold your head up high when your with him, acknowledge who he is and most of all, love him and enjoy life with him

Sorry to babble just my two cents worth heh

[Kavik]

It's just frustrating knowing that you've raised a dog who's become a bully and it's probably not ever going to get better or be able to trust him. I know I should just except it but I was really hoping to get the all-round 'perfect' sociable dog like everyone else seems to have - but I guess I just really stuffed up along the way.

This is exactly how I feel about Zoe ;) It is the hardest when people who have no idea what to do have a social dog in class and you don't. Although I don't know if it is fear or dominance with her - sometimes it seems to be one, sometimes the other. I was so hoping to be able to compete with her, and she is so good at agility especially.

[MonElite]

Zia - thank you. Im also an owner of a dog with personal space issues and battle every day with it. I guess I needed to know that there are people out ther that realise that and have ability to put themselves in my shoes.

The other day my dog played with his two friends in the park and a dog run towards us from a distacne. 2 out of 3 dogs immidiatelly on lead and we yell to the owner of a wonderfull BC to call her dog. She yells back - dont worry she is OK.

We yell but ours arent!!

Instead of calling her dog that is quickly approaching our dogs critical distance and going pass it she yells back WHY???????

WHY - if we knew why we would fix it, but we dont kow and we try to fix it with really extremly small results.

I am also starting to accept that my dog has a handfull of friends and there really isnt a need to add any more to his circle.

[Staranais]

This is a topic I've been thinking about a bit lately.

Many new dog owners expect to just be able to take their dogs down to the dog park and have them happily meet and greet every other dogs. I used to think that way myself, till I adopted my current dog!

Dogs are descended from wolves, and much of their instincts and behaviour remains similar to wolf behaviour. Wolves are pack animals, and to my best knowledge an adult wolf will generally not be immediately friendly towards wolves it meets that are from another pack.

Therefore, unless you own a dog from a breed that has undergone selection for dog friendliness (e.g pack hounds), I don't think that it should be regarded as unusual for an adult dog to dislike meeting strange dogs.

Like I say, just my 2 cents - comments welcome.

[Melisski]

Zia - thank you. Im also an owner of a dog with personal space issues and battle every day with it. I guess I needed to know that there are people out ther that realise that and have ability to put themselves in my shoes.

Thanks from me too, Zia. It really does make a difference when people recognise that it's not just me with the cranky pants dog. :cool:

Actually, feeling a lot better about it today, have finally decided what do in regards to Diesel's desexing (will get it done when obedience has it's month or so break over Christmas, and I can keep an eye on him - sure, it's the end of any showing/breeding possibilities he had going for him, but it's not like he knows that! Just gives me an excuse to get another pup someday soon!) and his training in general.

I do put a lot of pressure on this pup as well as myself, probably just because I'm a perfectionist anyway and can't help it. But the main motive at all times should be to have fun with him and that's what I'm going to try to do - whether that means he can have doggy playtime or not. He'll survive. I think he thinks he's human anyway.

Edited September 1, 2005 by Melisski

[melbell]

Thanks everyone for that bit of confidence boost as well...I really needed that :cool: .

I have been watching this thread closely as we are experiencing alot of dog aggression with our rescue, it has become increasingly worse in the last couple of months. We are going to training and will do everything and anything possible to help him, and I mean anything.

Reading this has helped me see that im not the only one, Toby doesnt have any dog friends at the moment but hopefully one day that will change, its hard to make friends when you try to bite them all the time . It doesnt change the amount that I love him though.

[Erny]

Instead of calling her dog that is quickly approaching our dogs critical distance and going pass it she yells back WHY???????

I am also starting to accept that my dog has a handfull of friends and there really isnt a need to add any more to his circle.

Myszka ....

:cool: Some people just get you, don't they ... "WHY .....". Why can't they take your word for it first, call their dog/s back and THEN ask why? (need scratches head emoticon here!)

I agree with you too, Myszka .... there are some dogs (for whatever reasons) that can't/won't/don't get on with all, or many, or any other dogs. The main thing is that we put ourselves in a position where we can control it and act responsibly and with forethought.

It's such a pity that others (such as the "WHY" woman) don't think with the speed necessitated by the ownership of animals.

(I'm tired .... I hope this makes sense.)

[Kelpie-i]

Hi, sorry have only just come accross this thread...really interesting. I hope you don't mind if I throw my 20c worth.

Melisski, is your BC working or show bred line? Reason I ask is that I have noticed that working lines tend to be a little more aggressive than the show bred lines. This is due to their very strong instincts. A very good friend of mine has quite an aggressive BC towards other dogs, but when she took him herding for the first time, he was within metres of ther dogs and did not bat an eyelid. So much so that he was happily standing around and within very close proximity of other dogs - mind you the whole time he was keeping his eye on the sheep. My friend was extremely stunned by this.

Our working bitch has a small circle of friends which she plays with, but watch out any labs or golden retreivers who come near her! It think it's the bouncy, "in your face" type dogs she doesn't like. Her best friend is a BC, they seem to "understand" each other really well.

Of course, this is certainly not a hard an fast rule, but from my experiences, working lines are a little more "snappy".

I would also be putting your dog's aggression down to puberty. At 7-8 months of age is when his hormones start to rise as he turns into a teenager. This is when he starts to feel all tough in side - pretty much like a 14 or 15 year old boy. Unfortunately the problem does not go away miraculously and you will need to work at keeping his mind busy at all times when he's around other dogs. Have you heard of motivational play training?? This style of training uses drives and it channels your dog's drives onto something else, taking his mind off his hormones. It has worked with many "busy" and aggressive dogs.

Open to comments, of course!

[MonElite]

It's such a pity that others (such as the "WHY" woman) don't think with the speed necessitated by the ownership of animals.

The WHY woman perhaps thought that all dogs that go to a park are friendly....

We were in a leash free park, our 3 dogs were happily chasing a ball together, looks innocent enough I guess.

Mind you hers was a BC or aussie shepherd ours are a mally, dobe and a GSD, some numbers and size dissadvantages for the BC.....

[Melisski]

Melisski, is your BC working or show bred line? Reason I ask is that I have noticed that working lines tend to be a little more aggressive than the show bred lines. This is due to their very strong instincts.

Our working bitch has a small circle of friends which she plays with, but watch out any labs or golden retreivers who come near her! It think it's the bouncy, "in your face" type dogs she doesn't like. Her best friend is a BC, they seem to "understand" each other really well.

Diesel from show lines - he's got quite a mix in there too - Clan-Abby, Danari, Majilibre and Nahrof to name a few. He's actually the exact opposite in regards to who he picks as his friends though! One of his best friends is a female Golden Retriever (who is bouncy as bouncy can be) and he picks fights with other BCs and working-type dogs, like Kelpies and Blue Heelers. Maybe he doesn't know what breed he is or something?

[Zia's Nuthouse]

Zia - thank you. Im also an owner of a dog with personal space issues and battle every day with it. I guess I needed to know that there are people out ther that realise that and have ability to put themselves in my shoes.

The other day my dog played with his two friends in the park and a dog run towards us from a distacne. 2 out of 3 dogs immidiatelly on lead and we yell to the owner of a wonderfull BC to call her dog. She yells back - dont worry she is OK.

We yell but ours arent!!

Instead of calling her dog that is quickly approaching our dogs critical distance and going pass it she yells back WHY???????

WHY - if we knew why we would fix it, but we dont kow and we try to fix it with really extremly small results.

I am also starting to accept that my dog has a handfull of friends and there really isnt a need to add any more to his circle.

You're welcome Myska, and i know exactly what you're saying. As I said mine do too. They have a small circle of friends that they just adore. So they get romps in the park etc and walks and plays, but I accept that dogs they don't know are a no no.

I too have had that bouncy dog come up and the owner yells "it's ok he's friendly" and I'm like ummm mine aren't?

I just love my babies even with their faults ;)

[Zia's Nuthouse]

This is a topic I've been thinking about a bit lately.

Many new dog owners expect to just be able to take their dogs down to the dog park and have them happily meet and greet every other dogs. I used to think that way myself, till I adopted my current dog!

Dogs are descended from wolves, and much of their instincts and behaviour remains similar to wolf behaviour. Wolves are pack animals, and to my best knowledge an adult wolf will generally not be immediately friendly towards wolves it meets that are from another pack.

Therefore, unless you own a dog from a breed that has undergone selection for dog friendliness (e.g pack hounds), I don't think that it should be regarded as unusual for an adult dog to dislike meeting strange dogs.

Like I say, just my 2 cents - comments welcome.

Brilliantly said Amhailte ;)

Some just don't like other dogs? Thats life. I have gotten over it along time ago lol

As I said mine have a nice circle of friends and each other and us

Mine don't miss out on any of lifes joys and pleasures.

I accept mine for who they are, not what I think they should be like, or because someone I know has a dog that will happily meet and greet any strange dog.

[Zia's Nuthouse]

Zia - thank you. Im also an owner of a dog with personal space issues and battle every day with it. I guess I needed to know that there are people out ther that realise that and have ability to put themselves in my shoes.

Thanks from me too, Zia. It really does make a difference when people recognise that it's not just me with the cranky pants dog. ;)

Actually, feeling a lot better about it today, have finally decided what do in regards to Diesel's desexing (will get it done when obedience has it's month or so break over Christmas, and I can keep an eye on him - sure, it's the end of any showing/breeding possibilities he had going for him, but it's not like he knows that! Just gives me an excuse to get another pup someday soon!) and his training in general.

I do put a lot of pressure on this pup as well as myself, probably just because I'm a perfectionist anyway and can't help it. But the main motive at all times should be to have fun with him and that's what I'm going to try to do - whether that means he can have doggy playtime or not. He'll survive. I think he thinks he's human anyway.

And Melisska, you're very welcome also

My two are stranger cranky pants too LOL

But they are mah babies what can I say heh

Hey we can start the cranky pants club

[Zia's Nuthouse]

Zia - thank you. Im also an owner of a dog with personal space issues and battle every day with it. I guess I needed to know that there are people out ther that realise that and have ability to put themselves in my shoes.

Thanks from me too, Zia. It really does make a difference when people recognise that it's not just me with the cranky pants dog.

Actually, feeling a lot better about it today, have finally decided what do in regards to Diesel's desexing (will get it done when obedience has it's month or so break over Christmas, and I can keep an eye on him - sure, it's the end of any showing/breeding possibilities he had going for him, but it's not like he knows that! Just gives me an excuse to get another pup someday soon!) and his training in general.

I do put a lot of pressure on this pup as well as myself, probably just because I'm a perfectionist anyway and can't help it. But the main motive at all times should be to have fun with him and that's what I'm going to try to do - whether that means he can have doggy playtime or not. He'll survive. I think he thinks he's human anyway.

And Melisski, you're very welcome also

My two are strange dog cranky pants too LOL

But they are mah babies what can I say heh

Hey we can start the cranky pants club

oops double post, don't know what happened there ;)

Edited September 3, 2005 by Zia

[sas]

Our new boy isn't selective with his aggression, it's just to whatever dog is close to him which is such a shame because in all other aspects he's a good well behaved dog *sigh*

Today he had his grumpest day since we got him, he went for mum and dads dog twice (they were wandering around all content and then bang!) then came home and had a go at Leila, god knows what's up his ass! Thankfully no damage done except for some shaky hands especialy from my mother!

He was desexed about a month ago, I hoping this may assist and we have just starting working with a behaviourist.

Thing is Turbo sometimes gives some very obvious signals and other times they are very subtle and I completely miss them. The Behaviourist has us working on Leadership but we're yet to see whether the aggression is dominant or fear based, my predication is that it is dominant based or something closely related. Before I got him he was in a pack of 2 other dogs and only recieved one hour of human interaction a day, I'm not sure whether this has an impact on his behaviour now.

[Kavik]

Which behaviourist did you see out of interest?

[sas]

A company called Complete Canines, heard of them? They don't actually service our area but I was able to get them to come out and see us. We also go out to see Steve at K9 on the 22nd of October.

[Kavik]

I haven't heard of Complete Canines. Did you like them?

Hope you enjoy your session with Steve :rolleyes:

I am thinking of trying to organise a seminar on aggression with him (haven't asked him yet, talked with myszka about it earlier today) - would you be interested in coming?