Selective Aggression

[Melisski]

My dog has few selected friends and plays with them, every one else is an enemy and I have accepted that.

myszka, I'm pretty much at this point too, and I personally don't have a problem with him being picky about his friends. But when some idiot lets their dog off leash and then proceeds to blame ME for Diesel acting up, it's very frustrating. On Tuesday night, one man even went to the trouble to ask me if it was alright for him to let his dog off - but then ignored me when I asked him to wait anyway! I would of quite happily grabbed Diesel and gone home, if he'd just given me a couple of minutes for D to burn off some energy and then for me to put him back on lead. As it happened, there I was attempting to hold onto a growling 20kg BC and stick his lead on while this other guy just stood there and let his dog get in D's face... which is one of the reasons the whole situation annoys me. Why bother asking if you don't care anyway? What part of, "would you mind waiting so I can grab my dog because he is likely to be aggressive," do people not understand? In the end I resorted to telling him, "can you grab your f***ing dog because otherwise mine is likely to bite it's face off," (which he wasn't, but I thought this might have some more effect). The response? Nothing.

Edited to clarify.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Melisski

[Staranais]

You just need a scarier looking dog, Melisski! The threat of "put your damn dog on a leash, or I will let mine off" works really well when your dog has a face like this...

I can imagine it wouldn't work so well with a pretty border collie, though.

[PAX]

Am, what you wrote to regain your dogs focus is spot on IMO

Mel, I often have people bring their young dogs up towards mine at training. The last time i went a man was approaching my dog with his pup and i started to back up. He said "can they play" i said "shes not that freindly". My dog is a three year old Dobe his is a 5 month old BCx pup. Then he continues to approach and says "can we just try"..............ARGHhhh. I think whos dog is going to come off worse, not mine but i'm the one being careful. Some people are just thick.

[MonElite]

It takes a bit of thick skin, but you can do it :p

When people aproach me and Rex is OK I always move away anyway. I ask - boy or girl if a boy I politely say - OK must be going now or we will have a war happening as my dog is not very friendly.

People usually look and understand, but yes there are those that will say - have some faith in your dog let him play......

I look at my dogs body language and make an assesment.

I ask the person to keep the dog on lead and than I move closer to the other dog. Watch the dog and make a decision than.

This is not a common thing I do, 99% of the time I just say - NO, I dont thinks so and walk away anyway.

Majority of agression happends in the first 3 seconds of the dogs meeting so you can make an assesment staight away.

Melliski - I basically would not be in the situation like you describe, I wouldnt let anyone be near me close enough to talk to me. I know sh*t happens sometimes and someone will pop out from around the corner, but in an open area I would call the dog way before someone would get close to me to start a conversation.

I more or less know my dogs critical distance, and make it triple the lenght and basically noone is allowed in that circle, unless I have him on lead. When I say not allowed - I move away far enough. if it means run I run.

Becouse I have a good recall and know the critical distance I can move away from whoever and let my dog run around within the critical distance and call him before he goes to close to the other.

But if one runs towards us - yeah big problem.......

[Melisski]

ARGHhhh. I think whos dog is going to come off worse, not mine but i'm the one being careful. Some people are just thick.

I know! Problem is my dog IS a woozy, skinny, weedy BC who THINKS he's the size of a GSD or something, the moron.

basically would not be in the situation like you describe, I wouldnt let anyone be near me close enough to talk to me.

The situation I was talking about off-leash was in an enclosed pen - me and Diesel and a few of his doggy playmates on the inside (along with their owners) and the other dog on the outside. It wasn't merely a case of the dog being close to me - the guy physically had to open the gate, release his dog AND give me the shits in the space of about twenty seconds. Luckily for him, I had Diesel by the collar before he even got the gate open.

[Melisski]

Amhailte - sorry, this is the best I can do: well, he does attack his toys, after all. There is ALWAYS a threat present when you're playing with a squeaking, multicoloured plush toy - isn't there?

Although I could borrow my brother's dog for a bit of a staffy-type advantage...

[Vickie]

Melisski, Diesel sounds exactly like my Zeus as a young dog. And I hate to tell you this, I'm sure you already know, but desexing did little to improve it, although it certainly didn't do any harm.

I know people won't agree with me on this, but BC's can be different to other dogs. They have different rules for playing, especially as they mature. They have the ability to read the most subtle of signs from other dogs and unfortunately there are a number of characteristics in some breeds that they just find plain offensive. BC's expect manners from other dogs (even if they don't always have them themselves).

I was always very cautious in correcting Zeus for the behaviours you describe in Diesel. For him, me getting tense & correcting him confirmed to him that he was justified to worry. I removed him from situations where he was forced to be in close proximity with other dogs eye balling him. Got him OBSESSED with a tennis ball, worked really hard on his recall & as you are doing, encouraged him to be with dogs he was comfortable with.

He is 8 now & still has an occasional problem with a dog, but usually recalls off very well. Funny thing is, I'm sure if I took him back to the obedience classes we started in, with dogs at the end of leads, he would revert to his old habits in a short time. At agility, he is a completely different dog, he is almost always off lead & rarely even glances at another dog.

I'm sorry that you have to put up with idiots, who ignore your requests in off lead areas...they're everywhere!

Not sure if this has helped or not. I am not saying the behaviour is acceptable, but I think understanding some reasons behind it can sure help to fix it.

[Melisski]

I know people won't agree with me on this, but BC's can be different to other dogs. They have different rules for playing, especially as they mature. They have the ability to read the most subtle of signs from other dogs and unfortunately there are a number of characteristics in some breeds that they just find plain offensive. BC's expect manners from other dogs (even if they don't always have them themselves).

Vickie - I sooooo agree with you there. At times, it's as if Diesel just finds a particular dog extremely offensive for no particular reason - just because of how it looks, or how it behaves. He gives such snobbish looks at some people at times I'm embarrassed to be with him...

[Staranais]

I know people won't agree with me on this, but BC's can be different to other dogs. They have different rules for playing, especially as they mature. They have the ability to read the most subtle of signs from other dogs and unfortunately there are a number of characteristics in some breeds that they just find plain offensive.

I find it really interesting you say this, because I've noticed that about BCs can be different too.

A number of bully owners I've talked to have agreed that their dogs have a particular aggression problem with BCs, and we came to the conclusion it was because BCs often seem to have a tendency to give other dogs "the eye". Which some dogs (bullies in particular) interpret as a deliberate challenge.

[Vickie]

I know people won't agree with me on this, but BC's can be different to other dogs. They have different rules for playing, especially as they mature. They have the ability to read the most subtle of signs from other dogs and unfortunately there are a number of characteristics in some breeds that they just find plain offensive.

I find it really interesting you say this, because I've noticed that about BCs can be different too.

A number of bully owners I've talked to have agreed that their dogs have a particular aggression problem with BCs, and we came to the conclusion it was because BCs often seem to have a tendency to give other dogs "the eye". Which some dogs (bullies in particular) interpret as a deliberate challenge.

It's interesting to hear it from the other side.

You think the "eye" invites a challenge, my BC's will tell you it's the staffy JUMPING on their head as an invitation to play that invites the challenge

Seriously tho...I really think they just have opposing body language. Mine are fine with mature staffies, or pups, just not the adolescents, unless they have grown up with them.

I once had a BC & a staffy at the same time...they were so gorgeous together and I miss them both so much. :p

[Vickie]

The other thing about BC's is that when they're working...THEY'RE WORKING!

And they have no tolerance for other dogs irritating them regardless of breed. My 3 are all like this, in herding, agility, obedience or even just fetching a ball. They take their job, whatever it may be, very seriously and are very intolerant of distractions.

[Staranais]

You're right, I think who is 'rude' depends on which breed you own!

You think the "eye" invites a challenge, my BC's will tell you it's the staffy JUMPING on their head as an invitation to play that invites the challenge

That's a fair call when the dogs are loose, even friendly staffies are not the most subtle of dogs.

But on the other hand I've talked to staffy owners who say that their dogs will form a strong dislike to BCs even if they're only seen the BCs from a distance. I'm sure the staffs are thinking: "that dog's staring at me, he wants a fight, he wants a fight!"

[Melisski]

You're right, I think who is 'rude' depends on which breed you own!

You think the "eye" invites a challenge, my BC's will tell you it's the staffy JUMPING on their head as an invitation to play that invites the challenge

That's a fair call when the dogs are loose, even friendly staffies are not the most subtle of dogs.

No, neither are bouncy labrador puppies, but Diesel likes those! Maybe he's just got select preferences based on breed types or something. I can just imagine him saying to his doggy friends, "Oh how could you go near that thing. It's just so... staffy... it's just beneath me."

Mind you, with Diesel, anything other than him is just so insignificant - even another BC. They're very stuck-up you know. Getting told you're the smartest dog around certainly does go to your head.

[Kavik]

Certainly one of Zoe's problems - she does NOT have a sense of humour If she is working, even just a trick or chasing a ball - it is SERIOUS!

Although she can be cheeky . . .

My Diesel on the other hand has a great sense of humour and thinks of the world as one big joke and play session, he is one chilled cucumber!

[boxagirl]

My dogs are selective like that too Barkly only likes 1 dog in our class (a hypo kelpie ) Bondi hates one Lab theree too With Bondi I have just taught her to behave around other dogs (works most of the time lol) and if there is a dog she likes she can play with it off lead..

I am yet to experience Barklys problems yet, but next month Im going to start training him so I'll have a challenge there

[mjk05]

I know people won't agree with me on this, but BC's can be different to other dogs. They have different rules for playing, especially as they mature. They have the ability to read the most subtle of signs from other dogs and unfortunately there are a number of characteristics in some breeds that they just find plain offensive. BC's expect manners from other dogs (even if they don't always have them themselves).

I don't think that's a BC thing, I think its a working dog thing. We were talking about this at a trial a few months back. 3 of us were walking our dogs- 4 BCs, one kelpie and one cattle dog, and 3 of the BCs and my cattle dog all have occasional "dog issues" with strange dogs at agility/obedience etc. Despite not all really knowing each other, none of our dogs had any problem with the others- they all seemed to read each other's body language and respect space. And all the dogs are much more relaxed in this atmosphere (other working dogs) than at a dog park or after agility training. It is interesting to note that some of these dogs (BCs) even have a problem with non-working-bred BCs running free with them- but not with any working-line dogs, even total strangers or rather full-on pups.

My cattle dog is very much a "personal space" guy, and is totally intense about his "work" (will run through a wall to get his ball ). He also expects manners from other dogs. Its interesting that he gets quite stressed at a dog park being chased around by a lab pup or a couple of weimaraners (like we were today)- but he is totally cool with running in the middle of a pack of 14 BCs/kelpies, all actively "working" him, and some even blocking him and shouldering him and occasionally stealing his ball.

The working dogs just seem to be much more adept at reading and giving body language (in working dog dialect, maybe ). So not just a BC thing

[Vickie]

I know people won't agree with me on this, but BC's can be different to other dogs. They have different rules for playing, especially as they mature. They have the ability to read the most subtle of signs from other dogs and unfortunately there are a number of characteristics in some breeds that they just find plain offensive. BC's expect manners from other dogs (even if they don't always have them themselves).

I don't think that's a BC thing, I think its a working dog thing.

You're right of course. I should have expanded it to other breeds. Although I must say, I feel BC's in general can be more reactive in response than kelpies. Kelpies seem to be able to ignore this behaviour more easily & work around it whereas I find BC's more likely to need to do something about it to pull the dog in line. A generalisation I know, but one I have observed quite a lot. ACDs I dont really have any experience of so couldn't say.

[Latisha]

Hi all,

It is great to see such a happening forum. I have had similar problems with my ridgeback cross due to lack of socialisation when she was younger. I recently started taking her to some classes and the dog park which has helped dramatically. I am ALWAYS careful when I attend mainly because you have to be careful of other owners and dogs. I also had an incident where I asked someone to please wait until I could take my girl out but no no "They'll be fine"....they weren't really. Tish seems to get fear aggression with bigger dogs on occasion but with smaller dogs she can be very dominant and plays pretty rough. As this dog was a small dog, the owner soon realised she should have listened. In saying this, there was no real threat of attack on this occasion, other than the fact the dog was severely slobbered on and she gave the owner a heart attack almost!!!

I recall when she was a pup, I took her out to where I was agisting a horse and a boxer came straight towards her. She got scared and decided to hide under my horse at the time. As he was eating, he booted her fair and square in the mouth and knocked her puppy teeth out. I think this plays a big part of her fear towards other dogs.

The thing I find the hardest is people's automatic perception of big dogs. If they raise their hackles in fear or give a warning sign when another dog is barging toward them, they are seen as agressive.

I have lost my chain of thought now. Whoops.

[Purple Julie]

BCs often seem to have a tendency to give other dogs "the eye". Which some dogs (bullies in particular) interpret as a deliberate challenge.

Yes, Jyra definitely doesn't like many other BCs because of this. There was one in particular at training, which I haven't seen for a while, who always stared at Jyra the whole time, just Jyra, not the other dogs! Don't know why this dog had a thing about staring at Jyra. Jyra would often return the stare, but was able to look away also. And yes, if they got close to each other, Jyra would growl.

[Melisski]

The thing I find the hardest is people's automatic perception of big dogs. If they raise their hackles in fear or give a warning sign when another dog is barging toward them, they are seen as agressive.

From my experience, I don't think it's even just BIG dogs - Diesel is only like 19kgs or so, not really big at all, but when he growls at a corgi or similar he's automatically seen as aggressive, even though the corgi is doing exactly the same thing. I might just go purchase a SWF and train it to barge infront of Diesel when he growls... ;)