Selective Aggression

[Melisski]

Over the last six months, Diesel has developed aggressive tendencies towards certain dogs within our obedience classes. If he spots one of them (in particular, he has a problem with a corgi) he'll growl and carry on, even if it's five metres away. Now, this hasn't really presented a problem as although its unacceptable (for me) for him to show blatant, unjustifiable agression, I know who and what dogs to avoid and so do the other owners - apart from some

There's another dog in my class who has fear aggression (and has for as long as I have known this dog... nearly a year). It has improved, however still has hissy fits every now and then. THIS IS ONLY DOG BASED, IT HAS NO AGGRESSION TOWARDS PEOPLE (unlike some other dogs in my class who, in all honesty, are a bit scary).

Last night, it growled at Diesel. Diesel promptly decided it wanted to play and starting bouncing around like a lunatic (typical BC!). The only problem was, my replacement instructor then decided to grab Diesel, put the two dogs face to face and FORCE an intereaction. Nothing happened, the other dog growled and then Diesel got pulled away. But what I don't understand if WHY this idiot decided to put them together in the first place. And I don't mean like let them wander around in the same area and see what happens. I mean grab them both by the collar and shove them together. For me, putting a dominant-aggressive dog up next to a fear-aggressive dog seems slightly stupid, let alone the fact that he did it without seeking any sort of approval from me.

But my main problem is, how am I supposed to combat Diesel's ego problem? He has never bitten anyone, and he doesn't challenge MY dominance over him - it's just certain dogs. It's gotten to the point where I can't let him off lead incase some idiot I don't know chucks their dog in the same pen as us and he has a go at them (this happened last night, even after I told the guy at the gate to wait until I had caught Diesel and taken him out - some people are completely inconsiderate, brainless twits with no knowledge of dog behaviour at all. It's as though because I'm younger than everyone I simply do not exist).

At the moment I've been correcting him every time he growls without provocation (sp?) and trying to get him to focus on me more during training (which is working quite well) but I'd really like to be able to let him have a run without worrying that some 40yr old idiot with his completly untrained puppy is going to cause me grief. As far as I am concerned, I'm just as entitled to let my dog run off leash with dogs I know he socialises with well as the next person - aren't I?

Edited October 18, 2005 by Melisski

[Staranais]

For me, putting a dominant-aggressive dog up next to a fear-aggressive dog seems slightly stupid, let alone the fact that he did it without seeking any sort of approval from me.

Seems that way to me, too. Perhaps ask him why he did it?

But my main problem is, how am I supposed to combat Diesel's ego problem? He has never bitten anyone, and he doesn't challenge MY dominance over him - it's just certain dogs. It's gotten to the point where I can't let him off lead incase some idiot I don't know chucks their dog in the same pen as us and he has a go at them. 

Well, personally I don't think you should let him off leash if there's the least chance he could attack another dog. Sorry if you don't like that idea, but it would only take one serious fight for him to be reported to the city council as a dangerous dog and have his life severely restricted. If you're seriously worried about him hurting another dog, I would get him to a good behaviourist pronto.

If I have the wrong end of the stick, and he's merely being a little bit of a bully (instead of truly dangerous), then I apologise for being harsh. In this case, I'd have to wonder why he was behaving this way. Is he under-socialised, and does he just not know how to behave appropriately towards other dog? Is this perhaps learned behaviour - has his bullying inadvertantly been reinforced in the past?

I'd question why your corrections obviously aren't working - they obviously are not, since if they were the behaviour would have lessened by now. Perhaps your corrections are insignificant compared to the satisfaction he gains from intimidating the other dogs. Or perhaps he has just worked out that you can't correct him off leash, so he can do whatever he likes once he's off leash?

Just a few things to think about.

[Melisski]

If I have the wrong end of the stick, and he's merely being a little bit of a bully (instead of truly dangerous), then I apologise for being harsh. In this case, I'd have to wonder why he was behaving this way.

Yeah, it really is bullying more than anything - no flat out mauling, biting etc. In fact, he's never bitten anything to my knowledge or anyone elses - he just picks on certain dogs. I would never describe him as dangerous, and that's not just a biased opinion. He is the most sociable, playful, placid dog in almost every situation, except with these three or four particular dogs that I know of.

Is he under-socialised, and does he just not know how to behave appropriately towards other dog?

He's been attending obedience classes since he was 5 months old - the aggression only started at about 7-8months. He's been very well socialised in my opinion - and the aggression hasn't gotten any WORSE, it's just not getting better. As I said before, he's a total goofball most of the time and just wants to PLAY all through the lesson.

Is this perhaps learned behaviour - has his bullying inadvertantly been reinforced in the past?

I don't think so. The first time he did it I grabbed him, growled at him and removed him entirely from the situation - sort of like a time out. But yeah, I think it might just be an ego boost sort of thing. The weirdest part is, other dogs he HAS had problems with (see my previous post about a Kelpie) he now thinks are awesome and wants to play with constantly.

Or perhaps he has just worked out that you can't correct him off leash, so he can do whatever he likes once he's off leash?

I thought that too, although he still does growl on leash - he just doesn't have the opportunity to cause trouble. Lately I've resorted to simply removing the opportunity, but obviously that's not going to affect the behaviour, just prevent it. Overall, I'd just like to get it to a point where I don't have to worry he's going to indimidate everyone else's dogs - or pick a fight with the wrong one and GET HIMSELF hurt in the process.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Melisski

[Erny]

Writing this "on the fly" at the moment, but there'd be a few questions I'd like some information on before we go further ...

1. How old is Diesel now?

2. Is he desexed?

3. Has there been ANY incident (search back in your memory banks really hard ... sometimes we forget about things because we didn't think much of them at the time) that might have given Diesel to be aggressive. Eg. A dog that was a bit too "over the top" on greeting, that might have bothered Diesel (even though he might not have reacted aggressively in response, at the time).

4. Is there a pattern to Diesel's selective aggression. Eg. Entire males (this is where Diesel's age and sexual status might factor in), dogs of certain sizes and/or colours, fluffy dogs, short haired dogs, dogs that tend to be very 'in his face bouncey' etc. etc. Look hard ... sometimes there are patterns that are obscure and difficult to detect without vigilance, but they are there.

5. Is there a common denominator as to the environment you're in at the times when Diesel exhibits his aggressive behaviour. (Eg. Always at obedience school, down at the park, etc.) or is it random?

6. Is it only when he's on lead?

Take time to think and, if necessary, investigate these possibilities. They can often lend some valuable clues.

Edited August 24, 2005 by Erny

[Melisski]

1. How old is Diesel now?

Just hit twelve months, about two weeks ago. Aggression started at approximately 7-8months.

2. Is he desexed?

No. He was left as a possibility for main registration and show/breed etc., although due to a change in intention of what I want to do with him - obedience/agility rather than showing, and the aggression, he will be getting desexed over the next break from training (probably the next month or two).

3. Has there been ANY incident (search back in your memory banks really hard ... sometimes we forget about things because we didn't think much of them at the time) that might have given Diesel to be aggressive. Eg. A dog that was a bit too "over the top" on greeting, that might have bothered Diesel (even though he might not have reacted aggressively in response, at the time).

YES - definately. He likes to play but is generally reserved in first meetings - and will growl if the other dog is a bit too full on. One of his first interactions as a small puppy (about three months) was with a much bigger dog who proved to be WAYYYYY to much for him, so I took him home. When I think about it, he growled then too.

4. Is there a pattern to Diesel's selective aggression. Eg. Entire males (this is where Diesel's age and sexual status might factor in), dogs of certain sizes and/or colours, fluffy dogs, short haired dogs, dogs that tend to be very 'in his face bouncey' etc. etc. Look hard ... sometimes there are patterns that are obscure and difficult to detect without vigilance, but they are there.

Yes - definately. In particular corgis, staffy types, kelpie types (the dog in the last question was a staffy/kelpie cross). He is wary but not aggressive with larger dogs. Smaller dogs, apart from corgis, are fine.

5. Is there a common denominator as to the environment you're in at the times when Diesel exhibits his aggressive behaviour. (Eg. Always at obedience school, down at the park, etc.) or is it random?

As far as I am aware, it had only ever happened at obedience training, and at the home of the staffy cross in the first question (which he no longer goes to anymore, because the dog, in my opinion, is HIGHLY unstable and a bit scary to boot).

6. Is it only when he's on lead?

Unfortunately, no. He will bully/growl at STRANGE dogs in the off-lead runs, as well as the corgi etc. if he gets the opportunity (which he doesn't, to the best of my ability, anymore).

[Staranais]

One of his first interactions as a small puppy (about three months) was with a much bigger dog who proved to be WAYYYYY to much for him, so I took him home. When I think about it, he growled then too.

Slightly OT, but I just want to throw out the opinion that this particular incidence is, IMO, acceptable aggression. It's very hard to train a dog to be completely non aggressive, nor do I think this would be a good thing. Most well adjusted dogs will respond if provoked - the unacceptable thing is growling and posturing when not provoked (and it sounds like your dog has unfortunately learned to do this, possibly from this very incident).

Don't know if you've seen this article - it's food for thought.

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html

Edited August 24, 2005 by Amhailte

[Erny]

Thanks for the response to those questions, Melisski.

I really don't like suggesting treatment methods for aggression via email/written word. I've posted before that my preference is to "see" the dog in action and coach the handler in what to do to manage and resolve.

I'm not surprised that the behaviour has occurred in the 'age' time frame you've described. Diesel sounds like he's feeling his 'adolescent muscles', so to speak. It does also seem to becoming apparent as a result of earlier confrontations (as you would've already probably guessed).

De-sexing might help curtail any inter-male aggression which might be occurring as a result of hormonal influence and seeing as you've decided not to breed, I concur that it's a good idea to desex him.

However, there's some learnt behaviour in there too, by the sounds, probably resulting from fear/uncertainty, on Diesel's part, as to the intentions of the other dog/s.

There are a number of things that can be done:

1. Preventing Diesel's behaviour (to show it's not integral to his survival).

2. Desensitisation to other dogs (building good association - play with toys, food treats, rewards, pats, praise etc. when Diesel is in the presence of other dogs but is exhibiting appropriate and wanted behaviour).

3. Teaching Diesel to look to you as his response to his feeling of uncertainty, rather than to taking matters into his own paws. By teaching this, you provide an outlet for Diesel to relieve his anxiety by looking to you and he receives a bigger reward from doing that than he would if he were to aggress to the other dog. Harder to explain in writing how to achieve this, than it is to demonstrate in person.

4. Although it's best to avoid putting Diesel in situations where he feels compelled to aggress, sometimes 'accidents' happen - either by handler error, or by being in an environment we can't control. If Diesel does aggress, it is necessary to let him know, in no uncertain terms, that behaviour is unwanted and will not be tolerated. I normally communicate this by a correction - and it must be a correction that is effective for the dog.

Talk with the management of your club. Do they have people in authority there that have the qualifications and experience to deal with the behaviour? ie Behaviourist qualifications/experience is what I'm talking about.

If not, I'd be seeking a place that can provide what you need - they are around. PM me if you need some suggestions in this respect.

Hope the above is of some help. Now ... gotta get back to work (I'd rather 'speak dog' all day! ).

[Sayreovi]

I would change classes, dont like that instructor at all...

Nova has doing the same thing for about a year now, he will spot some dogs and immediately hate them whereas before he liked all dogs, i just ignored it and figured he doesnt have to like all dogs. Then he started to get aggressive with any dog that was male, which eventually transferred over to Darcy thats when i decided he would be having the chop to hopefully reduce the aggression. That was a few weeks ago i have noticed some changes like he isnt growling at Darcy as much but as i havent gone to training for awhile i dont know if this has changed his aggression with other dogs.

OK looking over that i dont think it helped you much haha but thats whats happened with Nova and we started out in your position

Ohh Nova was intended to be used at stud and has his Ch. title but i and his breeder agreed that it was best getting him desexed as i had another younger dog to look after as well.

Natasha

[Staranais]

Now ... gotta get back to work  (I'd rather 'speak dog' all day!  ).

Oh Erny, wouldn't we all?

[PAX]

Melisski,

Hi there,

I would not worry to much your dog sounds normal to me. My dog does the same thing, he was desexed at 9 months and it has'nt made any difference. It doesn't bother me i just think of it like i don't like all people and thats ok. I found with training (as Erny said) he relys on me for approval and i can read his body language and know when he is worried or threatened. As he is better trained and older he will learn more self control.

I would suggest you be careful how you correct him when he is acting dominant because i have met dogs (ask Myszka) that do not show any signs of aggression and just go into full attack of other dogs because they have been over corrected. I would never correct a growl (towards another dog) because they are practically telling you they are not happy and giving you a chance to regain their attention and focus.

At your dog training club i would suggest that you NEVER let anyone handle your dog. What the instructor did sounds stupid and very dangerous.

If your dog is running in the pen with others sounds like you will just have to stay at the gate until your dog and his friends are finished playing.

Lisa

[Erny]

Packsapunch:  I would not worry to much your dog sounds normal to me..... My dog does the same thing .................... It doesn't bother me i just think of it like i don't like all people and thats ok.

You might not like all people, packsapunch, but that doesn't mean you've got the right to be aggressive towards them. My girl (adopted as an adult with dog/dog issues) isn't interested in interacting with other dogs. But, over time and with careful and consistent training/management, she has learnt toleration. That she doesn't like them enough to go play and romp with them doesn't worry me either. But I don't agree that aggression should be accepted as 'normal' and acceptable.

Packsapunch:  I would suggest you be careful how you correct him when he is acting dominant .....

I agree ... timing and level of correction is crutial. An aggressive dog isn't necessarily acting dominant - true dominance aggression is more rare than some would believe. Most aggression that I see at class is based in fear. This is why I recommend the handler work to prevent and not put the dog in a position where it feels pressured enough to exhibit the aggression. But, when/if it's shown, we do need to get the message across that it is not acceptable behaviour.

Packsapunch:  At your dog training club i would suggest that you NEVER let anyone handle your dog. What the instructor did sounds stupid and very dangerous.

I agree - not if the club condones that sort of handling.

Packsapunch:  If your dog is running in the pen with others sounds like you will just have to stay at the gate until your dog and his friends are finished playing.

Not sure what you mean here, Packsapunch ... What? That Melisski should only go in with Diesel when it suits Diesel ??? That's not what I'd call Melisski being in charge. What if there was, one day, a really good reason for Melisski to go in there (for Diesel's safety, for example) ... would she have to forfeit because she's taught Diesel that her entry to the pen is on his terms? Forgive me if I've misunderstood ... but I don't see how revolving around Diesel is gonna help matters.

[PAX]

Erny, I am basically agreeing with you.

Mel said that there is an area where people can let there dogs off lead for a run and play but sometimes other people let their dogs in there. I said the best thing to do to prevent this would be to stay at the gate.

I dont abuse people because i have developed self control just like i suggested the dog should with proper training.

With the agression i too said be careful with the correction so why you highlighted every point i made???

[Erny]

Sorry Packsapunch ... maybe it was me, but the way I read your post was as if you were saying Diesel's behaviour was ok and that you wouldn't correct (that was the infliction I read, anyway). Also, didn't understand you meant for Melisski and Diesel to stay at the gate.

Sorry if I misinterpreted ... and didn't mean to pick everything you said apart. I just got a bit concerned that Melisski could read it as I did too.

Forgiven?

[PAX]

Yes you are forgiven

I dislike agressive dogs but i do not expect my dogs to like and play with every other dog they meet. Do i expect them to behave and ignore them? Of course i do but this has happened with careful training of handler and dog.

cheers

Lisa

[Erny]

Paksapunch:  Yes you are forgiven

Thank you.

Packsapunch:  I dislike agressive dogs but i do not expect my dogs to like and play with every other dog they meet. Do i expect them to behave and ignore them? Of course i do but this has happened with careful training of handler and dog.

Sorry for my misunderstanding your original intent. I totally agree with you here. :D

[Melisski]

Talk with the management of your club. Do they have people in authority there that have the qualifications and experience to deal with the behaviour? ie Behaviourist qualifications/experience is what I'm talking about.

First of all, Erny, thankyou for the advice - its nice to know he's not completely hopeless. Secondly - first off I really did want to speak to someone about the instructor, but I just ended up getting too indimidated and slacked off. As I mentioned, I'm probably one of the youngest members there - I'm definately the youngest in my class - and I guess I'm a bit worried that complaining might reflect badly upon myself and my dog.

I would change classes, dont like that instructor at all...

K looking over that i dont think it helped you much haha but thats whats happened with Nova and we started out in your position

Ohh Nova was intended to be used at stud and has his Ch. title but i and his breeder agreed that it was best getting him desexed as i had another younger dog to look after as well.

Natasha - he's not my normal instructor, just a replacement while my normal one was away (no warning). I definately won't be training under him again anytime soon! As for the advice - hey, it's just nice to know that it's not just MY dog who growls at stuff (which is the impression everyone else at the club who doesn't know me, or him, seems to have).

I dislike agressive dogs but i do not expect my dogs to like and play with every other dog they meet. Do i expect them to behave and ignore them? Of course i do

packsapunch - this is all I want too. Hopefully with a combined effort of my corrections/focus exercises etc. etc. and getting the boy desexed will make a difference in the long run.

[MonElite]

I would suggest you be careful how you correct him when he is acting dominant because i have met dogs (ask Myszka) that do not show any signs of aggression and just go into full attack of other dogs because they have been over corrected. I would never correct a growl (towards another dog) because they are practically telling you they are not happy and giving you a chance to regain their attention and focus.

Yep - Im one of those people with one of those dogs......

Didnt know any better and was told not to let my dog get away with any signs of agression.

So growl = correction

hackels up = correctio

Bark = correction etc

How wrong was that advice!!!!

Now he shows little body language warning signs before he wants to have a go at another, and he is very quick.....

I have learned since then and noone handles my dog (except K9 Force) I dont go near the dogs if I dont feel like starting WWIII, I dont correct for worning signs.

If any instructors would ever tell me to go near a dog that I dont feel my dog would accept I'd tell them to go and get lost.

In fact on regular basis I walk out from certain excecises in a class (weaving between dog - I alwasy skip)

I do on regular basis (not often enough) attempt to slowly decrease the distance between my dog and other dogs (desetitize) but I have been shown what to do, what to look for, how to approach, when to turn around etc. Never forcefully etc.

if you dont know how to do it, dont attempt it, you might staff up your own and someones dog more than they already are.

My dog has few selected friends and plays with them, every one else is an enemy and I have accepted that.

What I do reccomend is that you train a super duper recall for yoru dog, that way you can call your dog and avoid sticky situations.

[Kavik]

Zoe is similar to myszka's description of her dog - but from what I have seen at the K9 Force seminars she has it under much better control than I do!

[MonElite]

Kavik - it takes practice :-) and a bit of forward thinking, open eyes all the time, noticing what dog goes where etc.

[Staranais]

Yep - Im one of those people with one of those dogs......

Didnt know any better and was told not to let my dog get away with any signs of agression.

So growl = correction

hackels up = correctio

Bark = correction etc

How wrong was that advice!!!!

I have heard of people who have had this happen to them as well.

Dog thinks he is being corrected for growling and posturing, so he stops growling and posturing - but he will still attack if he gets half a chance!

I don't normally correct my dog just for growling, but if I see him getting a little bit antsy in the presence of other dogs, I normally give him a job to do ('sit', 'look at me', 'target my hand', whatever). The chance to earn a reward gives him something to keep his mind off the other dogs. And I'm happy to correct him for disobeying a command in the presence of other dogs - I don't think that will have the dire consequences that Myzska describes.

Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else - but it works for us.