zero Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Hi I rescued a StaffyX male 'Tank' (12 months old) from a shelter 6 weeks ago. He was supposed to be ok with other dogs - his problem was fence jumping. He gets along really well with my 10 month old amstaff female 'Mallee' (desexed), however she is a really good sport & doesn't mind his dominant behaviour. Tank is very submissive to humans but he has been showing aggressive behaviour towards other dogs, especially male. We have enrolled Tank in weekly obedience & socialisation classes & his obedience is progressing really well but his aggressive behaviour remains about the same. He lunges, barks, snaps & gets very aggitated at the mere sight of another dog, even if they are some distance away :D . I love him very much & he is great as part of our family but I am wondering if there is any hope of him becoming more dog friendly. I am worried that he is going to hurt another dog & possibly teach my amstaff to be aggressive (we got her as a puppy from a breeder & socialised her from the start so she is really good, but she is submissive to him). I am confused as to how this behaviour wasn't picked up on at the shelter as he was there for a month. :p Does anyone have any advice as to how we could help Tank to overcome this aggression? Do you think at his age he will remain aggressive? How do you know whether a dog is likely to really hurt another dog? (I don't know if he is bluffing or serious & I am too scared to let him off lead with other dogs to see). Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I am now the owner of just the type of dog I have always tried to avoid! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 (edited) Tank looks gorgeous! Zero - aggression is a complex issue and I could probably write a page here in an effort to cover all manner of causes/reasons for the aggression. The behaviour modification treatment plans would take up another number of pages, as I'd be wanting to cover all angles and suggest treatments depending on what the causes of the aggression were. And at the end, I'd probably suggest not to guess or muck around, but, instead, to actually see someone qualified to assess Tank's behaviour - that way a teatment plan can be designed specifically to suit Tank. In addition, progress could be monitored and the treatment plan adjusted (if necessary) accordingly. What obedience club are you joined with? Do they have qualified professional dog trainers familiar/experienced in dealing with dog aggressive behaviours? I can suggest a training club that will be able to talk with you, assess Tank's behaviour, monitor progress and spend time in class with you (specifically) to guide your handling of Tank and help deal with any 'hurdles' along the way. The training club I speak of is Australian Dog Training. If you want to know more of them, you'll find a thread titled "Australian Dog Training" in this forum. If you'd like to know anything else, feel free to PM me. Either way, get onto this asap, as the more Tank gets the opportunity to exhibit his aggressive behaviour, the more it will become learnt behaviour and the more confident he will become that it serves his purpose, and the more aggressive the behaviour tends to become (and the behaviour continues to escalate accordingly). In the meantime, good on you for helping Tank by giving him a loving home :D . Let's see if we can help you sort out Tank's belief system and channel it into something of a more acceptable exhibition of behaviour. :D Edited August 23, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdielover Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 He looks like a nice dog. My staffy (pedigree) is just over 2 years old. Excellent with people and kids (although can be a bit rough with little ones). But has always had a very dominant personality. I have tried a few things and obedience for me has helped her (slowly but it has). Aggression was not a problem until a few months ago. She has always tried to hang off my border collie (border collie is almost 4 and have had him since 10 weeks of age), but the other day when at a flyball training session (our first lesson) Summa (staffy) would not focus on anything but Mysta and gave him a really hard time, plus a dog came over to her with a slightly dominant stance "stiff" sort of if you know what i mean and he growled softly at summa and she wanted to have him. She has done this a couple of times now with dogs that try to dominate or show their dominance to her. she has always had a dominate personality, (have had her since she was 11 weeks old) and when called would turn her head look at us and just keep going her merry way. When asked to stay, she just wouldn't. She would literally push/barge her way through the door before us - which I did not tolerate. But I am happy to say that after a long time (she is over 2 years old now) I am entering her in a sweepstake this weekend and am very hopeful she will pass - unless she has an obstinate fall back. LOL. She is not the first staffy I have owned, she is the third, but she is the most obstinate, pig headed, domineering dog I have ever owned. Not the most aggressive (that went to a bullterrier I owned), apart from all that she is a very loving loyal dog and i am very glad to have ventured out and learn other types of training techniques. Today I have just started crate training her and doing a program called "tuff luv". I am very new to this type of training, but gee it seems really positive - except for the fact that Summa wants out of her cage. But as I type now she is beside me and settled in her cage. I have taken her outside before and trained and played tug with her. I am about to feed her (with my hands) and then take her and Mysta for a walk. I am lucky I have the guidance of someone new to our club who is helping me and some others who want to learn some new training techniques for our dogs. Just thought I would share that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I agree with Erny, it would be valuable to see someone qualified to deal with the problem, your vet can usually recommend someone good. Here is a link about agression that you may want to read, has some interesting information about different causes of agression: http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/arti...taggression.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Have pmed you zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Zero, you're in good hands with Haven and Erny. :D I just wanted to second their advice to see a behaviourist. Dogs can be dog-aggression for any one of a number of different reasons, and before you fix the problem you really do have to diagnose the cause. An experienced behaviourist is invaluable when doing this. I love him very much & he is great as part of our family but I am wondering if there is any hope of him becoming more dog friendly. This depends why he's aggressive. If he's fearful or defensive, then IMO there's every possibility that over time you could desensitise him to the presence of strange dogs. If he's merely displaying the dominant 'gamey' dog aggression that's inherent in some bull terriers, the best you may be able to do is teach him that when he is working, he must focus on you and ignore strange dogs. Best you get yourself to that behaviourist for a competent diagnosis of the problem. :D Let us know how you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Where in Melbourne are you and just a point not all trainers without a qual arent able to help many poeple involved in dog cubs have years of experience working with this kind of dog It isnt always necessary to fork over money to get good help so long as your committed What shelter is the dog from most dont rehome fence jumpers anyway but to let a dog aggressive dog get through you do need someone to assess the dog and decide what is triggering the behaviour i'd suggest checking out anyone you consider working with see if your comfortable with their training style ask to watch them work with someone and to negin with probably better to go one on one yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Amhailte: Zero, you're in good hands with Haven and Erny. :D Thank you for that compliment, Amhailte. Yogibear: not all trainers without a qual arent able to help many poeple involved in dog cubs have years of experience working with this kind of dog This may well be the case, Yogibear, but you take a more of a punt by assuming/hoping the 'unqualified' person knows what they're talking about, and, particularly in issues of aggression, for the dog's sake, you really don't have alot of room for error in terms of treatment modification programs. Sure, perhaps some 'qualified' persons might not be really good either, but I think there's more chance of working with someone who knows their stuff, inside and out, if you know they've undertaken and passed a good course that includes not only training but dog psychology. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Another good idea when choosing a trainer (either qualified or non-qualified) is to ask for references from past clients who owned dogs of the same breed and/or who came to the trainer with similar problems. If the trainer is experienced and takes pride in their work, they should have no problem providing you with a few references for you to check up. And by having a chat to their former customers, you can get an idea of the types of training methods employed, and the degree of effectiveness, before you put your money down on the table. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I think there's more chance of working with someone who knows their stuff, inside and out, if you know they've undertaken and passed a good course that includes not only training but dog psychology. Actually Erny, that would be the very least of my considerations when looking for a trainer. Personally, I wouldn't go near a behaviorist or anyone with 'qualifications' if they did not have years of hands on experience working with dogs and even then it would depend on how they work. Its the experience working with dogs that I would be looking for - Then again, I know its difficult finding a good trainer if you don't have experience yourself - getting a referral off someone you trust is probably the best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 (edited) Personally, I wouldn't go near a behaviorist or anyone with 'qualifications' if they did not have years of hands on experience working with dogs and even then it would depend on how they work. Its the experience working with dogs that I would be looking for - Then again, I know its difficult finding a good trainer if you don't have experience yourself - getting a referral off someone you trust is probably the best bet. I hear you, pgm and agree, to an extent ... what bothers me is the person with "years of experience" which might include a fair amount of guess work, and perhaps sheer luck, in dealing with aggression issues, rather than on the basis of really knowing and understanding what they're doing. I agree with people getting referrals. Good idea. Quite often, though, people, by the time they seek help, are fairly desperate and the issue needs some pretty urgent action .... so I wonder if many people follow through with getting those referrals or whether they're so greatful there's someone there who "says they can help" because they've been dealing with dogs for years (perhaps only in obedience training?) that they don't follow up on this. I don't mean to give the impression that I'm a "certificate means everything" type of person (I swear by a canine chiro who doesn't have those 'formal' qualifications), but I've had a number of people approach me with their dog's problems/issues after having received "advice" from their 'unqualified' instructors at obedience schools. The advice has been wrong, inappropriate, incomplete and progress not properly monitered, if monitored at all. This has resulted in a worsening of the dog's behaviour, in some cases making modification of the behaviour even more difficult. Naturally, these people believed they were receiving good and proper qualified advice. After all, many of the other members of their club thought they were good. Just bothers me that the unsuspecting are open to being lulled into a false sense of security and belief. In general, some formal qualification does at least evidence having undertaken a course in the required/relevant field of expertise. Edited August 24, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I've had a number of people approach me with their dog's problems/issues after having received "advice" from their 'unqualified' instructors at obedience schools. Actually, Erny, if there is one group of people that I would trust less than those 'qualified' with certificates it is those well meaning people who volunteer at obedience schools. Such people of course, do not deserve my criticism, they do after all voluntarily give up their time for the benefit of dogs. What I mean by experienced is an experienced professional, somebody who has made their living from training and working dogs for at least 10-15 years. Preferably someone who has proven experience working with agression issues. Ask the trainer how long he has been working for, ask if he has dealt with aggression issues and then ask him if he can supply you with a few references from people he has worked with. Any good trainer will be happy to supply you with those references. I trust those references more than any 'qualifications'. what bothers me is the person with "years of experience" which might include a fair amount of guess work, and perhaps sheer luck, in dealing with aggression issues, rather than on the basis of really knowing and understanding what they're doing. Give me a lucky soldier over a good soldier - Napolean Bonaparte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Give me a lucky soldier over a good soldier - Napolean Bonaparte. Yeah, but Nepolean Bonaparte died at age 52 after 6 years in exile ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Just bothers me that the unsuspecting are open to being lulled into a false sense of security and belief. In general, some formal qualification does at least evidence having undertaken a course in the required/relevant field of expertise. You can have studied a subject without having recieved a qualification not everyone has the money or time to spend on courses to give them a piece of paper for something yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 How are you doing, Zero and Tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Just bothers me that the unsuspecting are open to being lulled into a false sense of security and belief. In general, some formal qualification does at least evidence having undertaken a course in the required/relevant field of expertise. You can have studied a subject without having recieved a qualification not everyone has the money or time to spend on courses to give them a piece of paper for something yb Never said that wasn't true, Yogibear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Yeah - Zero and Tank .... whilst I've been busy 'discussing' advantages of 'papered' qualifications, we've seemed to have gotten away from your issues. Sorry. Have you been able to procure some help to assist in Tank's issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 Sorry Guys we are still here I didn't get a chance to log on yesterday. Thanks for all your advice, Tank is enrolled at ADT & although he has been noted as a 'project dog' we have not yet had any one-on-one assistance with his behaviour. My OH handles Tank at the weekly classes while I take Mallee & I don't think he has been pushy enough about getting some assistance. As I spend more time with our dogs & take them for walks on my own it is probably more obvious to me what a problem Tank's aggression, is as I am a nervous wreck walking both of them. Mallee pulls like crazy to get near other dogs anyway as she is very excitable & then Tank pulls too, looking as if he would like to take a piece out of them. It is very embarrassing & stressful for me & I don't walk them very far for fear of an incident. Luckily we have a fenced baseball field close by & I usually take them there for a run off-lead. They rush at the fence if another dog comes by but at least they are contained. Yesterday he rushed at a dog & ran into the fence-durrr! I really appreciate the point about getting help ASAP before Tank's behaviour becomes more entrenched. I will speak to ADT myself & also look at the option of getting some further assistance from an experienced trainer/behaviourist. Funny but I don't know if he showed any aggression at the shelter. I took Mallee to meet him & although he growled at her a little through the fence he was fine with her in the exercise yard & he didn't seem to react to another male dog on in the adjoining exercise yard or when he walked past the other confined dogs. I just assumed they would have tried him with a mixture of male & female dogs to see how he behaved but I don't think this was done. When I said he had been showing aggression they seemed really surprised & said a male dog once jumped the fence into the same exercise yard as Tank & he was fine about it (however I don't think 1 dog is a fair indication). Also he seemed more subdued at the shelter, I don't know if this is a common thing for a dog to not show their true temperment in a shelter? As for fence jumping they said they weren't really meant to re-home him & gave us a hard time about extending the height of our fences - fair enough & we were happy to do it. The shelter is Australian Animal Protection Society in Keysborough. They seem to have a lot of volunteers that perhaps are not that knowledgable about dog temperaments, very lovely people all the same. Could anybody recommended a behavourist/trainer in Melbourne (North-Eastern suburbs preferred)? I will let you know how we progress, thanks again for all your advice & concern. Tank is a really great boy & when people meet him they think he is the most loving, sweetest dog ever. He just completely changes when he sees another dog & this glazed look comes into his eyes & he gets really agitated. Training is helping him to be more responsive & easier to contol but it is still awful to see him like that. He overeacts to noises (barking, pacing) & is a bit highly strung in general. I really hope he can mellow out a bit! Kylie (Zero is my horses name!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 How long have you been training Tank and Mallee If you go to www.k9events.com there is a list of trainers and i think there are some up your way You should be able to get one on one where you are and you have already paid to go there so start with them and see what they suggest yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 We got Mallee at 8 weeks & started classes with her about 10 weeks I think so she had been training for over 7 months. We also took her everywhere as a puppy so she is really confident & expects the best out of every situation & so far she has always submitted to other dogs. Tank we have only had for 6 weeks, we took him to ADT the day after we adopted him from the shelter, so he has been training for 6 weeks. He is really responsive to obedience training & is generally quicker to obey than Mallee, who is a bit of a stubborn girl! However, he is not progressing in the socialisation area & because he is on an orange lead & must stay away from other dogs I don't see how he is ever going to improve. He accepted Mallee right away - but he does dominate her & she doesn't complain. When he is on lead with us he has a go at any other dog we come across, even really old dogs or puppies. He also barks at men (not women) initially although he is quick to lick their hands & be friends. Once someone is in our house he is their best friend & very gentle. He was desexed & microchipped by his orginal owner but did not appear to have been trained or socialised at all. He is generally a very happy dog but he seems easily stressed. When there was a dog on TV the other night he started barking & pacing around the lounge room. He barks when he hears the neighbours in their backyards & just seems to be a bit tense & reactive to unfamilar situations. Mallee is as cool as a cucmber & she loves other dogs so it is a bit of a difference having Tank! He is gradually a bit more relaxed at home & he is pulling on the lead less, but he still goes crazy if he sees another dog & then he is really difficult to control. I am going to start trying to get him to sit when other dogs are around but at the moment he just loses it & then he wont listen to commands at all - not even with delicious liver treats & he loves his food!!! I will have alook at the trainers on the website you mentioned but yes I think I will push ADT a bit more first to see if we can get some more specific help with Tank. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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