Barf Diet Myth

[MumOf2LabBoys]

I didn't even get passed the 3rd line...

too much reading for this little chicky.

[gossco57]

You may like to read this site it explains the risks of uncooked meat

WWW.AVMA.ORG/ONLNEWS/JAVMA/JAN05/050115WW.ASP

[espinay2]

The JAVMA article (the original, which many raw feeders wil have seen - not the abstract you posted) has been around a while. I just love the bacteria phobia of some of the US based scientists. Note from the article that some commercial foods also contained bacteria, it is not restricted to raw meat.

Remember that the dogs digestive system is infinately more capable of dealing with bacteria than we are. The dog is designed to be a scavenger of rotting meat as well as a hunter (see previous threads where I described the dogs digestive system or go to http://b-naturals.com/Spr1999.php). Naturally we humans need to take care when handling raw meat, whether it be for our pets consumption or our own. Personally though I love sushi, sashimi and steak tartare and eat them quite regularly.

Many raw fed dogs are certified therapy dogs who have been required to be tested for bacteria. All that I am aware of have passed with flying colours (certainly, dogs who eat bones tend to have healthy mouths free of periodontal disease and its associated bacteria).

I find it funny personally that there is such a phobia about raw meat when commercial food is such a new thing, particularly here in Australia where commercial foods really only got a hold in the 1970's. If raw meat were so dangerous, how on earth did dogs survive as a species? People may find these articles which give some historical examples of popular dog diets interesting (Lew does some great research and makes it available fully referenced and in an easy to read form, so I am not ashamed to refer to her articles rather than write things out myself):

http://b-naturals.com/Mar2005.php

http://b-naturals.com/Apr2005.php

http://b-naturals.com/Jun2005.php

http://b-naturals.com/Aug2005.php

[MolassesLass]

If raw meat were so dangerous, how on earth did dogs survive as a species?

And how on earth did humans survive before processed "food"?

Sure, some people do not handle raw meat appropriately and poison themselves (and their children) but that applies whether they are feeding the result to themselves or their dogs and let's not have the world protecting people from their own stupidity any longer.

[espinay2]

The biggest outbreaks of food poisoning have been the result of cooked foods (or rather incorrectly cooked and processed foods). The jack in the box (fast food hamburger chain) scandal in the US is one. Child deaths most recently in Australia I am aware of from food poisoning have been from eating salami and take away pizza. Frankly I am much more worried about processed foods and incorrect food handling than I am about feeding raw meat to dogs (particularly as the only case of food poisoning I have had in the last 10 years has been the result of takeaway chinese food!)

[KitKat]

If raw meat and it's bacteria was so bad for dogs...why do so many dogs persist in taking bones and hiding them till they get a bit manky and then procede to eat them with great relish? often bringing them out so their loving owners can get a wiff of how ripe the bone is

But the day my dogs learn to cook their meat is the day they can start having cooked meat regularly.

[Aphra]

When I got my first cat of my own after leaving my parent's house, I took her to the vet and he advised me to feed her raw meat to keep her teeth clean. That was over twenty years ago, and my animals have always been fed at least some portion of their diet raw ever since.

I've always lived knee-deep in cats, and never lost a single one to food poisoning of any sort, although they've pretty much always had at least one raw meal a day.

Even before I started feeding mostly BARF (I'm more like fifi and feed a bit of everything), my dogs always got some portion of raw, including whole rabbits when I could get them. My oldest dog is now 17, so I don't think it's done him any harm. My German Shepherd bitch died at 13, not a bad age for a big dog.

I suspect a fair proportion of the bacteria count in JAVMA article is due to the ways in which animals for slaughter are raised and the wau the meat is handled afterwards, in America. Feedlots are not common in Australia, but certainly contribute significantly to the bacteria load carried by beef cattle.

[Ianto]

poisoned dog food feared to have affected pet owners

dog food recalled in Asia after illnesses reported

Life is full of risks no matter what you feed.....

[gossco57]

I believe that you all have put forward some very good points for both sides and it certainly has me thinking. The best I can do is see what works for my dogs the best and keep an open mind. I must admit I am concerned not giving my dogs a big big bone, to chew on, they do seem to enjoy it so much.

[KitKat]

Actually...it's with the big recreational bones that you can have problems...as they are bigger and stronger then the lighter types the dogs can actually snap and break teeth...

[gossco57]

So what size bones would you suggest I was told kangaroo tail bones are very good.

[espinay2]

What size is your dog?

[gossco57]

TOY BREDS. CHINESE CRESTED HAIRLESS SO AS YOU KNOW THERE TEETH DONT SEEM TO LAST VERY LONG AND I AM WORRIED ABOUT THEM GETTING GUM DISEASE.

I CAN GET KANGAROO BONES THAT ARE DRYED IN A DRY OVEN ONLY SO I DONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT SULPHER DRYING.

[Aphra]

If they're only little dogs, chicken necks or wings might be big enough to chew on. I give my cats chicken necks. I also buy pork bones and the butcher cuts them up for me into smaller pieces ... you could ask for them to be cut into little dog sizes.

I also get lamb, what I think are probably bits of backbone? Dunno, but long thing bits of bone and meat, my old dog can chew through those quite happily and his teeth are pretty worn.

Last time I offered my big dogs kangaroo tails they both turned up their noses, so I haven't bought them since ... I suspect there was something wrong with them.

[gossco57]

the only thing is i am really worried about what they say about chuicken necks been bad for them I am abit confused :p

sory about the caps forgot thats regarded as shouting

Edited August 23, 2005 by gossco57

[Purple Julie]

If you want something bigger than chicken necks and wings, try chicken drumsticks or chicken maryland or even chicken carcasses.

Or if you want to try the necks and wings, and you are a bit scared, hold onto the bone and only let the dog chew off a small bit at a time.

I read all the positives and negatives of raw feeding before I started Jyra on it, and I was concerned about choking, so that's what I did at first with chicken carcasses, until I got fed up of my fingers getting in the way! Ouch! And I always insist that Jyra be fully supervised when she eats, even though she has never had any problems.

ETA: I think fresh kangaroo tails would be better than dried ones.

Edited August 23, 2005 by Purple Julie

[espinay2]

I have big dogs so feed bigger pieces. What I feed my cats would probably be suitable for your dogs: chicken necks and wings, turkey necks, rabbit pieces, lamb flaps, lamb necks and kangaroo tails (The cats cant really eat the bone on the last two but they have good fun and exercise ripping and tearing off the meat. I have a pic at home of one of my cats as an eight week old kitten after she had stolen a roo tail off one of the dogs and was tucking into it guarding it with all her might :p )

[gossco57]

wings, turkey necks, rabbit pieces, lamb flaps, lamb necks and kangaroo tails That seems like a practical idea. Now what about a mixture of Supercoat and perhaps a mixture of cooked mince vegtables and say rice or pasta a better comprmise heh! :p and

perhaps an occassional tin of something like natures gift (doesnt seem to smell or be sloppy) Any extra Vitamins?

No I still dont work for a dog food company :D

Edited August 23, 2005 by gossco57

[espinay2]

Lew has an article on feeding 'half and half' that may provide you with some ideas:

http://b-naturals.com/Jan2005.php

[Miranda]

Now what about a mixture of Supercoat and perhaps a mixture of cooked mince vegtables and say rice or pasta a better comprmise heh! :p and

perhaps an occassional tin of something like natures gift (doesnt seem to smell or be sloppy)  Any extra Vitamins?

gossco 57 there is enough cereal material in Supercoat already, feeding rice and pasta in addition to the dry food isn't a good idea at all. A dog's digestive system isn't designed to cope with starches, it doesn't even have any enzymes in its saliva to help with pre-digestion. It should also be noted that pasta and white rice are the equivalent of white bread, processed, denatured food with very little nutritional value.

Of all the canned foods Nature's Gift is one of the better ones, but I don't recommend feeding canned food either. The mince and a small amount of vegetable matter is fine although I would feed the mince raw not cooked.

I feed raw with the addition of a small amount of Eagle Pack dry food. I do not like Supercoat, but if it suits you that's ok.

ETA that I don't feed any supplements whatsoever.

Edited August 23, 2005 by Miranda