Working Kelpies/ Bordercollies

[TigerJack]

Hello

I am fairly new to the kelpie world. My newest addition is now 16 weeks old. She is Noonbarra Kobe II. I am aiming to introduce her to flyball down the track and I am starting herding soon. Haven't done that before but friends are enjoying it so I thought I'd give it a go. She is a smart little thing, but stubborn. In the pic she is 8 weeks old and just investigating her new home.

Jo

[Guest cloverfdch]

Jo she is beautiful . Have fun with herding, it is very addictive though .

Edited August 24, 2005 by cloverfdch

[Sparty]

A family from our club has got Noonbarra Bob II they would have got him for top levels in agility and obedience i think their other dog got a top dog recently in agility. I would be interested in a link to their website if they have one Bob would be about 6months old now he is a red and tan Kelpie

[Vickie]

Hi Vicki

It does sound confusing but with the heading stuff, it was just what I saw at a clinic a few years ago & the trainer used some young kelpie pups at a demo day too and demonstrated heading....just what i saw but sorry I explained it rather badly :p

No worries, I wasn't trying to be rude, I just think it's a hard thing to explain, especially to people just starting out.

I thought I really understood balance, a seemingly simple term, until a few weeks ago when someone showed me a really unlikely balance position. Now I have revised my definition.

[TigerJack]

Sparty

Noonbarra's website is www.noonbarra.com

Kobe II has a page there as well with more pics. Bob II may be a brother to my friends Noonbarra pup, Cobber. He is about 6 months old now and he is Kobe's half brother. Cobber and Kobe will both end up doing flyball together.

Jo

[fidelis Border Collies]

I myself only go out there to have a good time, and to give my dogs something else to enjoy, Three Sheep Trialing is only done sucessfully when you have a strong partnership with your dog

Wally2020

you are braver then me

I need to do a bit more herding to get my confidence up and my handling skills but dave reckons my main problem is not having stock Sense. Which will not come untill I do alot more stock handling.

I hope to be able to 3 sheep Abigail next year but depends if I can get her to stop at 12 oclock.

Dave is running one of my Fluffy town dogs in 3 sheep and although she has no style and just does what she is asked. I am pretty proud of her as at the Toowooomba Royal she got the sheep to the pen.

Tracey

[avenglenn]

By the way Avenglenn wasn't it just acouple of weeks a go that you said that Karrawarra dogs had bad temperments????

I would also like to know why you are not so keen on trialing Kelpies anymore???

Wally2020

Where to Start - so many answers so this post is very dis-jointed - just tried to cover a lot of questions.

Wally - You are very aware that I love my Kelpies and I love trialing them and I will defend my dogs to the world.

However, I am simply a realist and I don't walk around with my eyes shut thinking that every Kelpie bred in this world is perfect and can three sheep trial.

Matti can just three sheep trail - she is not great at it, however, I enjoy running her. Tanya and Casey would still live with me if I believed every Kelpie could three sheep trial.

OK Answers to other forum questions:

O'Bree dogs are shearing shed dogs. Matti and Tanya were both bred to O'Brees Gamble. Doubt that you will find much on them on the web.

Karrawarra - my words were - they have a lot of bite in them - however that can be controlled and lessens with age. It is well known that Karrawarra has a lot of bite - nothing new??

Hook Pen - Wally are you related to the Dodges - - they were also against it and were out voted and the Dodges have some of the most beautiful casting dogs in the country - and why did they not want the pen. Because it puts all competitors on an equal playing field regarding the cast.

Natural Distance and Break - Wally don't agree, you can train some distance and some will come with age, however, it needs to be bred into the dogs. Look how much distance and break Foxy has at 6 months - she has as much distance as any border - this natural break was bred into her (thanks to Tommy) - I have not trained it into her. All I have trained at this age is that Foxy always arcs and never takes a step in towards her sheep when I give a side command - unless I ask her to take ground off her sheep.

I don't even know how this point can be argued - look at any good trial boder pup - they are naturally off their sheep - its breeding and trianing combined.

Heading ability - is how hard the dog really wants to be on the head of its sheep - a must in all good working dogs.

Eye - I have heaps of experience on this one - last thing you want in a three sheep trial dog is a lot of eye. Just a touch of eye is what is required.

If I missed anything let me know.

Neece and the Kelpies.

[sidoney]

What is a shearing shed dog? I understand that Xia should be an "all rounder" which I like the idea of (can't see myself having time for more than a bit of a go and like the idea of having a bit of a go at a lot of things); not sure what a shearing shed dog is? Is that a yard type dog?

[mjk05]

Hook Pen - Wally are you related to the Dodges -  - they were also against it and were out voted and the Dodges have some of the most beautiful casting dogs in the country - and why did they not want the pen. Because it puts all competitors on an equal playing field regarding the cast.

We were reading about this in the WSDA newsletter- it looks rather unnecessary and complicated What method was being used previously?

I can't see a major problem with the way sheep are set-up in WA at the moment (covered yards/chute/flags). The sheep seem to end up in the same position for each competitor. Isn't that an even playing field?

The hook pen set-up involves moving each set of sheep out with bikes or tray, doesn't it? Doesn't that add a significant amount of time to the trial?

[avenglenn]

What is a shearing shed dog? I understand that Xia should be an "all rounder" which I like the idea of (can't see myself having time for more than a bit of a go and like the idea of having a bit of a go at a lot of things); not sure what a shearing shed dog is? Is that a yard type dog?

Hi Sidoney and re the hook pen,

Ever seen those photos of dogs going across he backs of a few hundred sheep penned up ready for shearing - that is what O'bree dogs are known for - basically a yard type in the old fashioned terminology.

Xia is bred to be an allround dog - her mother is now woking at Avenel as a paddock dog with Mary. Gamble her sire works at Weribbee for a living as a paddock / yard dog working both Cattle and Sheep on a daily basis.

I think Wally (as good a friend he is) is missing the point about me and my kelpies - I don't have real work for them to do on a daily basis and like most people I am limited to how many dogs I can own. So I need to have dogs that I can trial - I can't walk around with my head in the clouds - I need to be realistic about my dogs, their breeding and their trial ability - if I am ever going to be a serious breeder.

Its hard to describe the hook pen. I don't believe Wally has ever used it so I don't know how he can express an opinion - I may be wrong - perhaps he has trialed with it.

Matti and I have used the hook pen release on many occassions at training with the Cressy Club and it is excellent - if you watch the winner of the Brisbane trial that Tracy posted - and how the sheep are drawn onto the dog - with the hook pen that would not happen - the dog would have got a lovely clean cast. The sheep would have simply turned and looked at the dog and remained where they were put.

Neece and the Kelpies

[Vickie]

LOL, you missed heaps Denise:

"What is natural break? What does a dog do when it has heading ability? And what is the footwork that one is looking for? (and do any of these have anything to do with "square flanks"?)"

I'm not having a go at natural break, but will try the others as they relate to my dog from others explanations of how she works...feel free to explain further or modify my attempts.

A dog that has natural heading ability is always watching/working the head of the sheep, rather than any other part of the sheep. The saying goes, where the head goes the rest will follow. A dog that is working the head will fly out around the sheep to head them off & turn them back when they look like breaking. Usually a dog working the head is proactive, rather than reactive. I have seen this to be a problem as well as an asset. We have a few dogs at training who will not come off the head & as a result can't move the sheep. They are always darting around and can be so focussed on the head that they forget the handler in the equation. Trim is a very good heading dog, she never stops reading the sheeps head & will often identify a lead sheep that she needs to work.

Footwork...don't really know how to explain this one. Again, in relation to Trim who I have been told has "fancy footwork", it usually refers to the little half steps she takes, always ready to dart one way or the other as required. The closest analogy I can think of is to get a ball in front of your dog & wave it from side to side & watch their footwork...then magnify it a thousand times

I don't think either of these really relate to square flanks. A square flank is where the dog, when asked to move around the sheep, turns it's head sideways and moves in an arc, rather than moving towards the sheep first. Best way to picture this is to imagine a circle around the sheep. A square flank moves along the path of that circle, rather than in an oval shape. The distance of the circle from the sheep will differ with different sheep in different situations.

Cross driving. Picture a paddock, you stand still and have the dog drive the sheep directly away from you, giving a flank command, you ask the dog to turn the sheep, say 90 degree angle, like you're going to make a square. So I guess it's basically the dog moving the sheep somewhere other than towards or away from you.

And for Kateshep:

yes the cast is the dog moving around the sheep to fetch them to you and is the first step in a 3 sheep trial. A cast is really just a larger flank.

and balance is different to heading. Balance is the point that the dog needs to be to hold/fetch the sheep, usually to the handler. Only the dog can determine where balance is, and again can be in different places depending on the sheep & the situation. Many people get into trouble always stopping their dog on balance, b/c the people cannot accurately judget the point of balance like the dog can. So you can & people do, upset their dogs natural balance by interfering with it.

Edited August 25, 2005 by Vickie

[mjk05]

Matti and I have used the hook pen release on many occassions at training with the Cressy Club and it is excellent

I haven't seen it used, so... but is the current system (whatever that is) so bad? I haven't heard any complaints about our current system in WA.

What is the currently used alternative, Denise?

And how much time does it add to the trial? We already are limiting entries at some trials due to lack of time- it takes maybe 5 secs to open a gate and pull the flag ropes to position sheep with our current system- if each run had an extra 2 mins for sheep to be moved out and set-up, surely that would slow things down

And some of the more "excitable" sheep used at trials might be a total nightmare to put in a pen, either with a bike or set-up dogs, or even a tray.

Is it worth the delay and fuss to make it easier for dogs? I've always found the cast an interesting discriminator between dogs/handlers.

Hey Vickie- good descriptions

footwork is a very subjective term- some dogs I've seen described as having "pretty footwork" aren't doing the tennis ball-thing- its more the way they move on sheep, gentle deliberate steps all the way. There are some kelpies here that get comments on their footwork, and what I see is that they lift all their feet, back and front, very deliberately, almost like a dressage horse. There are also some BCs that have a particular two-foot bounce, which also gets called "footwork".

Square flanks-

Best way to picture this is to imagine a circle around the sheep. A square flank moves along the path of that circle, rather than in an oval shape. The distance of the circle from the sheep will differ with different sheep in different situations.

I think (hardly an expert, though ) of square flanks as being MORE than going around the circle. The dog should actually move out further from the sheep as it goes to flank- so if you draw the circle round the sheep, and then the dog's path- it has more square corners.

I am working a little pup now who shows this perfectly- she has no commands yet, but if I set her up to move around the sheep to balance, she will turn her head away from them, and set out wider than she needs to, then when she hits balance, she turns, and comes back in to the right distance, then stops. All natural- its lovely

If you think of the sheep as having a bubble round them, that's the distance the dog needs to be to start applying pressure. When the dog has them held, its at that distance, applying pressure- if it flanks by going just round the edge of that bubble, the pressure stays the same, and the sheep may move as the dog goes round. If the dog kicks out (breaks out, or gives ground) as it goes, the pressure on the sheep is relieved, and they are less likely to move, until the dog comes in to apply pressure again. It also calms the sheep.

Think of your hand as the dog, and a balloon as the sheep inside their bubble- if you have the balloon balanced on your hand, and move your hand round the curve of the balloon, it will roll off your hand. If a dog doesn't have square flanks, the sheep are likely to "roll" off the dog as it flanks.

As far as "natural break", "break out" etc goes- I think some of the dogs on Tracey's trial videos show this perfectly- the ability to go wide/give ground when necessary. I think!

[avenglenn]

LOL, you missed heaps Denise:

"What is natural break? What does a dog do when it has heading ability? And what is the footwork that one is looking for? (and do any of these have anything to do with "square flanks"?)"

........

A dog that has natural heading ability is always watching/working the head of the sheep, rather than any other part of the sheep. The saying goes, where the head goes the rest will follow. A dog that is working the head will fly out around the sheep to head them off & turn them back when they look like breaking. Usually a dog working the head is proactive, rather than reactive. I have seen this to be a problem as well as an asset. We have a few dogs at training who will not come off the head & as a result can't move the sheep. They are always darting around and can be so focussed on the head that they forget the handler in the equation. Trim is a very good heading dog, she never stops reading the sheeps head & will often identify a lead sheep that she needs to work.

Beautifully said Vickie

I so want to see you guy working - the photos look excellent, you will have to let me know when you enter your first trial

Re the Astra dog - not sure what I am going to - plus I have to consider that Matti will be having a litter next year and I will want to keep one of those. So I may stay with just one border and the rest kelpies - and if I never become a successful three sheep trialer - then so be it )

Not wanting to come of the head is a training issue - these people need to do more off-balance work with their dogs - it can be overcome with training. Matti has a stack of eye and I did have this problem with her - John gave me a few exercises and now she will come off when asked - almost everytime - at Deni in the Novice she stuck at the pen on me and cost me a stack of points - however, I was still very pleased with her run )

The head is the place the we want the dog to be - however, they must come off when asked -and tas above this is also where to much eye can cause problems and the dog will 'stick' and not obey its command - the eye takes over.

Footwork - beautifully explained - its like watching a very good dancer - they are always anticipating the next move of the sheep and as you say good dogs will watch the leader and make sure they have it covered.

Natural break is when the dog will naturally keep giving ground on its stock without being asked. For example the dog is constantly reading its sheep and breaking out . I know my pup may end up with to much break as she matures - only time will tell

I will describe an exercise we do for three sheep trialing:

Handler with sheep in front and then dog in front of sheep working the head - handler is pushing sheep onto the dog. Now dogs with natual break will keep giving ground and stay on the head, however, they won't close on the sheep they will keep going backwards or arcing backwards (without tail turning) this is natural break that is bred into the dog. Break can also be trained its just not as natural or pretty to watch - not all dogs will break naturally and it does not make them any less a dog.

Does the above make sense??

Neece the Kelpies

[herding_guy]

Okay guys as you may have guessed from my user name I actually have herding dogs (kelpies)...cattle , sheep and ducks.

Seeing this is a conversation about herding dogs I'd like to let you know about the training day which will be held last weekend of September in Melbourne (near the airport). We will be going through the basics, instinct testing the dogs and having lots of practicle fun with sheep and dogs.

If any one is interested please contact me on email.

Cheers,

David.

[herding_guy]

Just want to hear from any Kelpie / B/C people out there on what they do with Dogs.

I like the Avenpart Lines myself and just want to hear waht other people have and do..

My kelpies work sheep, cattle and ducks (for fun).

I also like Avenpart lines, theyare fine dogs, but they aren't suitable for me or for the work I want them to do. I also like Puds lines but I find them a bit soft (I have one and she annoys me a bit). It all depends on you and the type of work and sport you want to use them for.

So are you looking for a kelpie or BC or do you own one or two or three......they are addictive. I'm going to have to get patches to stop me bringing the m home, hee hee.

Dave.

[wally2020]

Hi Tigerjack,

Welcome to the discussion, what a cute puppy, how old is he/she now, and what are you going to do with him???

Wally2020

[wally2020]

I can't see a major problem with the way sheep are set-up in WA at the moment (covered yards/chute/flags). The sheep seem to end up in the same position for each competitor. Isn't that an even playing field?

Hi mjk05

This is only my opinion of it. I personally feel that Hook pen makes it easier for poor casting dogs, my dog is one of the worst casting dogs around if the sheep are standing freely out in the paddock or arena, but as soon as put them in a pen he will cast wide.

A Three Sheep Trial is meant to show the best DOGS out there.

I think that the current setup for letting sheep out is fine, there is no disadvantages to letting them out his way unless your dog cuts in on the cast or stops short and then it is not the sheeps fault, it is the dog that is at fault.

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask, as I will have a bit more time to answer them tommorrow.

Wally2020

[Kelpie-i]

Welcome aboard herding guy......it's about time you found this forum. What took you so long?

[Kavik]

Have you guys had any problems regarding your dog's herding instinct and how your dog relates to other dogs? Like a dog with a lot of eye or one that crouches, has this caused problems in dog-dog interaction?

[Carrathool]

We show borders they are great and sometimes they just go out to the farm and do some farmwork for fun! They are GREAT