Working Kelpies/ Bordercollies

[fidelis Border Collies]

Three Sheep trialing is so far removed from real work that I do agree with the current line of thinking by some triallers that the sheep should be worked prior to an event 

There is nothing worse than seeing sheep that have only ever been worked by a bike - on a trial ground with a dog trying to work them - so thus I have also been told to select what trials I attend so that my dogs are given the best possible chance of success.

Denise at the Supreme last week after the first morning session where most of the sheep with Sheep/Kangaroo Crosses. I think 80% of the 1st runs the sheep just darted back and jumped the fence.

The Judge got the dog that hadn't scored in the morning to bring all the sheep out at lunch time and they had 3 mobs of sheep total number 205 and a few dogs worked them for 3o minutes taking them around the obstacles.

As the judge said what does it prove having sheep run after run jumping the fences. Doesn't look good for spectators and the Aug Jimboomba trial attracts large crowds.

The runs after lunch were more in keeping with what you would expect still not easy sheep but not so inclined to jump the fence.

The only downer was Bing who is working brillantly had one of the earlier sessions so no score :D

Tracey

[kateshep]

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Edited January 17, 2006 by kateshep

[avenglenn]

The Judge got the dog that hadn't scored in the morning to bring all the sheep out at lunch time and they had 3 mobs of sheep total number 205 and a few dogs worked them for 3o minutes taking them around the obstacles.

Excellent call by the judge - it is an exhibition sport after all and there is nothing worse than feral sheep making good dogs and good handlers look medoicre - simply because the sheep have no idea what a dog is.

Cressy two years ago - we had two sheep die on course (they were ill) so the whole mob had to be changed for another. Then the new mob was difficult and also jumped fences etc.

Good news is it looks like Victoria may be changing the rules to allow people who have not won a Novice to have a cross - and continue on the course without a score - at least people get to have a run and most importantly learn .

Denise

[avenglenn]

It was the same dogs/bloodlines in kelpies that could win trials and that can also do paddock work well.

Are there different bloodlines in Kelpies that are more suited to doing yard trials for example than large paddock work ? I have heard more than once that some Kelpie lines are becoming less suitable as all round working dogs and more specialised at trial work, being bred specifically for it, is this true ??

What about Border Collies, is there a difference between trial bloodlines and bloodlines that are more suited to paddock work ?

At the last Deni Three Sheep Trial I was sitting around the fire talking to Pip Hudson - he actually saw the great Kelpies like Johnny, Ceasar, Sugar trial - and he knew the legends like Parsons and Scanlon. I sat transfixed while he spoke about all the old dogs and the old trialers - it was an evening I will never forget.

Ross Dodge who also saw Johnny trial and told me that the dog was a terrible tail turner and every film taken of him was stopped when he tailed turned of his stock.

It is important to remember that trials had very different rules back then.

My belief over the last few years is that Karrawarra blood is the key to breeding a successful kelpie who is capable of three sheep trialing at a high level.

The most important aspects of a trial dog are natural distance, natural break, exceptional heading ability, patience and footwork - so are the keys to producing a Kelpie that can three sheep trial on a par with the borders.

Re my Kelpies - I have believe I have three of the above requirements in Gena and three of the above requirements in Matti. In Foxy I beleive I have all five - only time will tell if she makes a successful dog.

Billie the Border has everything - however, her downfall is she is so in-bred - daughter back to father! - however I knew that when I bought her.

Kelpies have not got to the stage of Border Collies - most of the Three Sheep Border Collies are bred specifically for the sport.

I do believe there are some Kelpie breeders now breeding for the Yard Trial Arena - more in Victoria than NSW. NSW is still breeding all round utility dogs.

Denise

[sidoney]

natural distance, natural break, exceptional heading ability, patience and footwork

I understand some of these terms but not all. I think I can basically understand distance. What is natural break? What does a dog do when it has heading ability? And what is the footwork that one is looking for? (and do any of these have anything to do with "square flanks"?)

Is there a "herding terminology for dummies" site anywhere? I think I know what driving is now but still don't know what cross-driving is (unless it's me in a traffic jam).

BTW Kavik your description of Zoe staring at the cat and poking at it with a paw is EXACTLY what happens here. Sometimes Xia gets swiped when said cat has had enough. Oh and Xia is used to being lain on, hugged, etc. by a 4yo child. Connor says, "Xia is my favourite".

[Kavik]

I didn't realise different lines were better for different types of herding, this is all very interesting.

I don't think Zoe was ever my brothers and sisters favourite - she was a bit too full on and too high energy for the rest of my family I think The funniest thing was when my brother would have a LAN party with all the computers and his friends, and Zoe would do the rounds and lick everyone's elbows

[Perry's Mum]

This is really interesting - my first dog was a Border but now I have a rescue long coated Koolie and I have just started herding with her. She is 2 1/2 years old and just loves it. She has shown absolutely no interest in flyball or agility, despite liking running, jumping, and being absolutely passionately obsessed with balls.

[Vickie]

The most important aspects of a trial dog are natural distance, natural break, exceptional heading ability, patience and footwork - so are the keys to producing a Kelpie that can three sheep trial on a par with the borders. 

Uh Oh!

I thought patience would come with age, maturity & experience. It does doesn't it?

please?

someone?

anyone?

Here's a good link with explanation of some terms:

http://www.duke.edu/~awho/herding/glossary.htm

Edited August 24, 2005 by Vickie

[kateshep]

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Edited January 17, 2006 by kateshep

[kateshep]

*deleted*

Edited January 16, 2006 by kateshep

[Vickie]

Heading ability is the dogs ability to go to the "head" of the sheep, the most furtherest point they(sheep) are from you, and maintain that( is that balance ?)...so the dog is always on the opposite side of the flock from you(sheep inbetween you and the dog)...and naturally maintains that.

Dunno if thats right I think it is best left to the experts

Sounds like you're a bit mixed up there Kateshep, no offence, but I think you're right, better to leave to the experts. It's so hard to get your head around stuff as it is without confusing things.

[Vickie]

My only non expert advice is this:

you can read the terms all you like and learn what they mean...but you never really understand them until you work a dog or see a really good demonstation of them. Just my experiences.

I thought I knew many things, but I am only just now starting to really understand them.

[wally2020]

Avenglenn

The sheep do need to worked down, so that they know what a dog looks like, not to the point where they walk through the obsticles by themselves, or to the point where they want to take on the dog, because they have over dogged, There has been a couple of trialers, that said that Cressy verged on this last year.

The NZ Hook release : For anyone that doesn't know is a round pen that has an opening on one side that they take the sheep to with a bike or the likes and then put the sheep in it, and the dog cast around the sheep while they are in the pen. The pen is raised up off the ground, so the dog can come in under to move the sheep if need be. I don't think this will be a good thing for the sport, your dog should be capable of picking up the sheep no matter where they end up on the trial ground, you do not lose points until your dog picks up the sheep, the dog does however lose points if they cut in on the cast and cause them to run, also they lose points if they can not bring them back to you in a straight line, but your straight line starts from where your dg picks them up.

If you are refering to Ruffy, with sheep only be worked by a bike or the such, But I know your not because you know that they are worked for a couple of days before, just to let them know a dog, not worked down to the point of being pet lambs, but just so they know what a dog is.

I didn't say that Alistair was a bad dog handler, Find me some where I said that.

The Sport of Three Sheep Trialing was a hobby for farmers and there dogs and to help farmers find better dogs for use on farm, the idea of trials is to mimic what you would do at home, now days it is nothing like what you would do at home.

Some of the greatest Three Sheep and farm Border Collies around were bred and work by the great Jack Hiscock as I'm sure Avenglenn would agree.

By the way Avenglenn wasn't it just acouple of weeks a go that you said that Karrawarra dogs had bad temperments????

I would also like to know why you are not so keen on trialing Kelpies anymore???

Wally2020

[wally2020]

you don't have to disagree just get out there and prove it.

That would stop everyone talking, would love to see you out there giving the Border Collies a run for their money.

Tracey

Hi Tracy

I try and get out there and prove it, I have won a couple of Farmers and have penned at Novice level, the problem is that I'm am not as good a handler as Greg Prince or Graham Hasall or Ron Seabrook and my Kelpie that I trial is a natural Yard dog, so I behind before I even start.

The likes of Graham Hasall has won open Three Sheep Trials and Utility Championships with Kelpies, so I think he does a pretty good job of it, and Mary McCrabb, Avenglenns mentor has won Three Sheep Trials on numerous occasions to, with the old Glenville lines and I think with Avenparts that she bred herself.

I myself only go out there to have a good time, and to give my dogs something else to enjoy, Three Sheep Trialing is only done sucessfully when you have a strong partnership with your dog

Wally2020

[wally2020]

Are there different bloodlines in Kelpies that are more suited to doing yard trials for example than large paddock work ? I have heard more than once that some Kelpie lines are becoming less suitable as all round working dogs and more specialised at trial work, being bred specifically for it, is this true ??

What about Border Collies, is there a difference between trial bloodlines and bloodlines that are more suited to paddock work ?

thanks in advance for any info

I think that there are more and more kelpie breeders in Victoria that are breeding mor towards Yard work. Not Yard Trials as alot of people still use there dogs at Home for general station work, alot of younger people are going more into yard trials because they are usually just one day, or they are run over two days Saturday and Sunday, alot of people can't get time off to go to a trial during the week.

Alot of three sheep trials are run on weekdays, and are run over three to four days.

In the Border Collies I think if you want to get allround station dogs I think want to try and get the old Hiscock lines.

In Kelpies I think if you want more natural paddock workers, you have to go to NSW or one of the few Victorian studs that are still breeding those lines. Avenpart Kelpies are still used to do all the mustering of sheep and cattle on there 12500 acre property, and are use Australia and world wide to the same.

Wally2020

[Kelpie-i]

I once attended a trial where I am positive the sheep used were "devil" sheep. I don't think they'd ever seen dogs before as even the most experienced trial dogs were having trouble. These things were absolute bastards...they just did not act as sheep should.

Only those dogs who also worked on the farm were the only dogs that got anywhere as they were probably used to handling feral sheep.

At the end of the day, the sheep were let out of the pen and they all ran up towards the hill back to graze.

you can read the terms all you like and learn what they mean...but you never really understand them until you work a dog or see a really good demonstation of them. Just my experiences.

So true!!

[wally2020]

The most important aspects of a trial dog are natural distance, natural break, exceptional heading ability, patience and footwork - so are the keys to producing a Kelpie that can three sheep trial on a par with the borders.

Uh Oh!

I thought patience would come with age, maturity & experience.

I think that most of the above mentioned traits can be trained into dogs with the right training, and don't worry most dogs mature with age sometimes not until 5 or 6 but eventually they will

Wally2020

[wally2020]

Only those dogs who also worked on the farm were the only dogs that got anywhere as they were probably used to handling feral sheep.

Hi Everyone

Sorry for all the posts at once, have been away all day, and have only just got back.

I think the above quote, shows that there are always dogs out there that can handle all types of sheep/stock and thats what the breeds should aim towards, Everything I have said, is only my opinion.

And I have also learnt that my fingers don't like spelling "that"

Wally2020

[Guest cloverfdch]

Has anyone come across O'bree Kelpies? I have searched the web and cannot find anything on them. There was an add in the paper today.

Edit i have found a little bit of info on them .

Edited August 24, 2005 by cloverfdch

[kateshep]

Hi Vicki

It does sound confusing but with the heading stuff, it was just what I saw at a clinic a few years ago & the trainer used some young kelpie pups at a demo day too and demonstrated heading....just what i saw but sorry I explained it rather badly :p