How Do I Get A Reliable Stay Happening?

[chezzyr]

I wouldn't physically correct a collie - even my over-confident exhibitionist flinches if he thinks he's being yelled at.

Nat

I just have to raise my voice and Rosie slinks off into a corner and does her "shakin dog" impersonation. Correction = end of world for some dogs

I would not use physical corrections either - imagine trying to "undo" it.

[sidoney]

Here's my take on what's been said so far.

I think problems with eye contact are due to training issues and not due to the eye contact itself. If your dog is used to eye contact, and also used to no eye contact, and also used to changes between eye contact and no eye contact, and you don't make a cue of it, so it's not anticipating something to happen on the eye contact, then there should be no problem. I think that sometimes people look at their dog when they are about to tell them to do something and, clever things that they are, eye contact can be taken as a cue that something is about to happen. At the moment I'm proofing my dogs to release on certain cues, and sometimes they will anticipate, and start to break on the wrong cue. If they thought eye contact was a part of that, then I think they'd release on that. As far as I am concerned, I should be able to look or not look at my dog, and switch between them, but it's not a cue and it won't break.

If chezzyr's dog is giving her strange looks with down ears when being asked to wait or stay, the dog is having confidence problems and you should take it slowly and keep it confident. A dog that's afraid or worried in a stay is much more likely to have problems than a dog that's confident (and besides, who would want to stress their dog like that?). I like to see a nice confident body language in the stay and it's better to make haste slowly in order to get that confidence. Building a confident foundation now will pay off hugely later. I find that club training may rush some dogs - train your dog to its schedule, not theirs.

Regarding proofing stays, I expect my dogs to stay no matter what. Currently one of my proofs is having them sit and stay in the back of the car when we arrive at the exciting off leash dog area with water and ducks, and I can run or jump or lie down or go out of sight or whatever, and they stay there until I release them. Note that I release them because I train for an agility stay which is a lead out and then release into flat-out run. If I trained obedience (as I used to train and compete) I would have the body position different, some cues different, and would reward in place and make the release lower key. Still, my dogs know what their job is and stay anyway. Note to self, have them do all that away from the car further, so they don't associate the car with the stay. They stay without car in many other situations, but need to mix that situation up a bit.

Vickie's reminder to train the stay or wait in all aspects of daily life is an important one. Every minute you spend with your dog, you are training it in some way. May as well be the way you want.

Regarding distractions. Sometimes you have to make your own distractions. Shopping centre car parks and all that sort of thing are useful. Can you throw food near your dog and it will stay? Can you throw food AT your dog and it will stay? Can you throw toys near, past or at your dog and it will stay? Can you feed or play with your other dog (if you have one) and it will stay? You can get creative. In some ways, you are teaching the dog mental resilience rather than this distraction then that distraction then that distraction. Once the dog has mental resilience, it should be able to cope with distractions it's never met before.

Regarding body language on stays - proof that OUT. The dog should stay no matter what body language you use. So use all different kinds, until the dog realises that body language/eye contact/and so on are NOT part of the cue or conditions for stay. Proof out EVERYTHING except for your chosen cue or cues.

Regarding corrections. As far as I am concerned, the only time one would ever use a correction is if you are totally sure the dog understands the job, and is confident with it. The danger with corrections is that people may use them under the wrong conditions - dog doesn't understand, dog is not confident, proofing has not been properly done, and so on. Then you get a stressy dog which is not only bad for itself but also tends to make getting a good stay difficult if not impossible. The most useful correction, if you really really want to do it, is one that the dog associates with the incorrect behaviour and not with the handler or other environmental conditions.

[chezzyr]

Thankyou people for all your input. Information overload here :p - remember beginner handler and beginner dog

I feel I must mention that I am NOT a rocket scientist and some of the terms used are over my head. I dont even know what "proofing out" means. Sorry people but I really am a beginner. I am still trying to understand the concept of a target stick that theyve started introducing at class. This whole obedience thing sounds like it might be VERY rigid, regimented and military like. At this point in time I simply want to learn some "life saving" basics whilst keeping things interesting and light.

I guess what I am also trying to say is that I would like some basic practical advice. But yes there are a few things I have learnt that I can go out and practice with

Edited August 8, 2005 by chezzyr

[Staranais]

Sidoney - thanks for the great post. Lots to think about.

[Lablover]

I think it depends on the dog whether or not they feel threatened by being stared at. I should imagine as they read our body language so well, it may have something to do with them realising that when we are not looking at them, we will not be giving them any commands.

Another point BTW, in dog "language" a raised lip showing teeth is a sign of aggression. When we smile at our dogs do they think we are getting ready for a nibble?

How I would love to be a dog (for a day) and learn how they really think. Trying to work out how my dogs think, give me a damm headache, LOL.

[chezzyr]

Another point BTW, in dog "language" a raised lip showing teeth is a sign of aggression. When we smile at our dogs do they think we are getting ready for a nibble?

Good point. I wonder what it (smile) does mean to dogs. I do think a laugh or giggle is a different thing - it must be the vibes given out. Our dog seems to respond to giggles and normally it makes her happy or silly, wagging tail, licking us to bits or running around doing zoomies.

[Guest Tess32]

Well Reilly knows a human smile means same as laughing/fun - as if I stare at him with a straight face and then smile, he play bows and goes silly.

Nat

[sidoney]

Dogs are perfectly capable of learning that a human smile means the human is likely to do something fun. They are also capable of learning that being looked at is not threatening. It depends on what goes along with it. If you only look at your dog when you are about to punish it, it will feel threatened. If you look at your dog with aggressive posture that you have used in the past, it will feel threatened. If you practice staring at your dog while feeding it, it will associate the stare with being fed. If you associate jumping up and down and yelling and making hitting motions with your hands and feet with rewards (probably would have to build up to that), the dog will associate those actions with good things and won't feel threatened.

Dogs know the difference between people and other dogs. Some things that you may do may be similar to dog stuff, and the dog may initially read it in that way. If you associate it with something different, the dog is capable of learning that.

[Lablover]

Sidoney,

Absolutely. When we break down what a pupy learns in every day life, it is amazing.

I only added the smile, as just one tiny example, of how dogs learn to read us.

[Staranais]

I wonder what it (smile) does mean to dogs.

I have met a pitbull cross who had actually learned to raise her lip to smile back at people.

How's that for smart? It was quite an impressive smile too - lots of nice pearly whites.

[MonElite]

When the dog is happily staying for up to a minute and then letting you return around it without moving then it is time to introduce Distance between you and the dog. This is when a long lead or extenda lead comes in handy. You leave your dog facing it. You then walk backwards yourself and keep telling your dog to STAY every know and then. when you get about 15 paces away then stay still and look over your dog's head, DO NO make eye contact as this will challenge your dog to BREAK. When you have been standing there for say 2 minutes Return to your dog, saying STAY every now and then until you are in thr At Heel position.

It sounds like you are going from a 1min stay at the front of the dogs nose straight to the 15 steps at 2 minutes. There are MANY steps in between.....

As much as this is a good description for ob. ring many pet people dont really care if the dog sits, is in a down or in a stand on their left or right or at the front as long as it will STAY in a lets say 1m circle.

If I was a person never interested in trialas I would never teach the left hand side (and only that) original position. I would teach the dog to stay wne Im at the front, behind or whatever, each and every day a different original position, not necesarily the left of handler

[chezzyr]

It sounds like alot of text book stuff is being presented here. I really dont know if I am interested in going onto advanced obedience etc. We are ONLY half way through the first level and she didnt even do puppy school etc.

I am fortunate that I have a smart breed and I think she is a smart individual. As for whether fewer steps are involved or many steps - I find my dog learns quickly. Was sitting within a couple of days, jumping obstacles offlead after just a few demos (yes WE had to demo), shaking hands within a couple of days etc. I dont use a clicker either. I just use lots of praise.

The reason for this post is that "stay" isnt something we have really got around to teaching her and I really want to know some common sense tips - its for her own safety. When it comes down to it a stay is going to be more important than flying over obstacles and shaking hands.....

Edited to add: we acquired her this year at 12 months of age, so considering she hadnt done any obedience etc I am pretty proud of her

Edited August 9, 2005 by chezzyr

[MonElite]

chezzyr - thats my point, you are by the looks of it not interested in the trials, so if you say stay you dont particularly want to remember to leave on a right leg (although it can come in handy) you do not return to your dog around your dog to an exact heal position.

you want the dog to STAY wheather you will leave to the left, to the right jumping, looking at it or smiling or whatever.

General rule - time than distance than distractions

Edited August 9, 2005 by myszka

[Guest Tess32]

The main tip throughout all of this is to simply build a really solid base for the stay.

Be consistent, train for duration of stay, distance, your position, distractions and so on.

Most important thing ever ever - is to only train for *one* aspect of this at a time.

If you don't care about obedience and want it more for safety, then find the position she is most likely to stay in "drop or sit" and build that one up.

I like the stay, it's fun. I'm a bit weird though

Rosie's a collie, she'll be teaching you to stay soon

Nat

[chezzyr]

well, this is going to be weird. I tried the stay thing right in front of her but as soon as I went to step back alongside her she broke! Tried it again - broke again. I got frustrated and came back inside. Its also very windy outside so I think that was bothering her. Yet yesterday when I tried the stay from a distance and walked back to her she didnt break. But it wasnt windy yesterday....

[MonElite]

obviously wind = distraction for your dog. Plus being outside with more noises, birds etc.

Most dogs go "nuts" in the wind, apparently so do children...

[chezzyr]

still windy here off and on but tried her again - this time she seemed more keen and I think she is starting to "dig" obedience (because atleast she is spending time with me rather than her toys). I give her short sessions . Today we played a game where she jumps over the jump (offlead) and then comes back to me, goes around my back and sits on my left side. Probably fairly "advanced" but she was good. Getting the hang of it. We also have little games of soccer in between the exercises

Edited to add: owning a dog is such a distraction but working from home does have its benefits. Lunchbreak here then back to WORK!

Edited August 9, 2005 by chezzyr

[espinay2]

I have met a pitbull cross who had actually learned to raise her lip to smile back at people

Lots of dogs do this. Dalmatians are renowned for it. They really show off their teeth and it can sometimes be taken for a sign of agression by those who are not dog savvy.

One of my Pyrs smiles too but it is more a crinkling around the eyes and a little lip lifting rather than the full blown show us your pearlies that my Dally does.

Chezzyr - re read my post a few pages back. The most important rules to remember when teaching stays are as follows IMO:

1. Stays need to be relaxed and stress free. If you get frustrated, stop the lesson.

2. Build a strong foundation and progress slowly. It will pay off later on.

3. Start by increasing time with you right beside the dog, not in front. In front comes later (my progression is beside, 1/2 a step to the side, 1/2 step diagonally forward, directly in front, 1/2 step back in front, 1 step back in front, length of lead in front, lead on the ground at length of lead, and then moving progressively backwards. I will also be doing some with me in different positions beside and behind the dog after I have established a stay at the length of the lead) .

4. Whenever you increase the distance, decrease the time (and then build up time at the new distance)

5. If your dog is getting up from the stay all the time, you are going too fast. Go back a few steps and work on that foundation a bit more

6. Always praise/reward the dog in the stay position, not after you have asked it to get up.

Edited August 9, 2005 by espinay2

[Staranais]

Lots of dogs do this. Dalmatians are renowned for it. They really show off their teeth and it can sometimes be taken for a sign of agression by those who are not dog savvy.

Yeah, I was startled at first by her suddenly showing teeth - it was a strange expression, sort of like a snarl without the nose wrinkle. Then her human dad explained what she was trying to do, and I had to smile as well.

[Kavik]

Since I teach eye contact for heeling, Diesel does not see it as threatening. He knows that good things happen with eye contact! However it may make him break and want to come to me for a treat!

I really need to look at what I do different at home compared to class because Diesel acts differently in class with the stay . . . may have to ask someone tongiht.

Very interesting about the smile. I have heard some dogs learn to smile as well.