How Do I Get A Reliable Stay Happening?

[chezzyr]

Hi

We are only 6 weeks into level one at dog club. But I am anxious to teach my dog to stay. I dont care if its with a sit, drop or stand as long as she doesnt move!

I am wanting this mainly for her own safety as we live on a through road and there are some idiots that hoon up the road.

I want her to know I mean business when I tell her to stay. So far we are only getting short distance stays out of her in the "safe" and quiet backyard. I am more concerned if she accidently bolts out the front or if we are out somewhere that there is more "danger" and distractions.

Anyone got some tips/methods that will really help me? I dont really care that it hasnt been covered in the course yet - I just want to get working on it.

[Guest Tess32]

How are you currently teaching it?

For it to be solid, you really need to build up three things - duration, distance, distractions.

What is Rosie currently up to? Does she understand the command yet at all?

Nat

[chezzyr]

OK, this is how "I" do it:

I get Rosie to sit and say the word "wait" while keeping my finger pointed up in front of me and I walk backwards a few feet. I then stop - am still facing her.

(somehow she understands this pointing sign language that it means to look/concentrate/wait)

I lower my arm and then use "ok or come" (and tap my leg). Sometimes I can lower my arm and have my arms by my side for a few seconds before calling her.

If I turn my back to her she will generally break because she cant see my face or my pointing finger (and therefore she doesnt see that I mean business)

I have been able to increase the duration and distance a little, all well and good in a backyard but how do you get a dog to understand that its NOT ok to bolt to the front door or bolt out into the traffic????

[BubbleGirl]

I've only just started working on this with my Rosie at dinner time, same think the pointed finger and serious face and the word "stay". She actually managed it quiet well last night but I'd be really keen also to hear pointers on this. We start dog training at Macarthur in a week.

Edited to add: this is with clicker training, I click and then she knows she can chow down on her dinner.

Riles

Edited August 8, 2005 by Riley

[chezzyr]

Yeah my Rosie "waits" for her dinner, I say "wait" (finger up), place her bowl down, wait a few seconds and then say "ok". She is fine with that.

But I REALLY want to master the stay-for-her-own-safety and manners thing!

[BubbleGirl]

But I REALLY want to master the stay-for-her-own-safety and manners thing!

Ditto so will be watching this thread KEENLY

[Guest Tess32]

Hmm, ok I have some tips, but bear in mind I'm only up to about a 3 min drop stay with mild distractions (ie. dogs).

Mostly, "stay" is not the same as "wait". Wait is used to "stay there till I give another command" in this case "come". Stay means *you* will return to the dog.

I'd do the same though - give the command (I do verbal STAY as well as hand signal (stop sign), move away a few steps, and then return before she breaks and praise/treat.

But when you do a session, work out what you are working on - the duration OR the distance.

What I did first off is work out her average "breaking" distance. Do three sessions, step away and simply count until she breaks (no command) and then average the time and work from there.

I increase duration after each successful time and then in between a few sessions I do a really short "stay" so they don't learn to "guess" the time.

I would not add a distraction until the time/distance is solid.

Once you get to about 1 minute, it gets a lot easier as they get the concept and it's easy to increase time.

It really is a matter of practice practice practice though.

Nat

[Guest Tess32]

P.S - don't do what I do and constantly say "STAY" while the dog is staying. Best to watch only the dog's legs for signs of movements.

If you give too many unconscious physical cues (arms in certain position) it's much harder to do out of sight stays.

OH - for practical use I'd use "wait" instead, not "stay"....wait before you go out the door, the car door, cross the road and so on. Do not move until she waits.

Nat

Edited August 8, 2005 by Tess32

[Shakti]

I am just a newbie so please ignore this if it doesn't work for you! Firstly, I use *Stay* to mean *Stay there till I come back* I never recall my dog from a Stay - *wait* on the other hand means *wait for the next command*. Secondly I practise the *Stay* indoors a lot while I am ironing or watching TV or eating dinner so that the dog knows I am not about to do anything exciting (chance would be a fine thing LOL) and can relax and even snooze knowing I will come back to him no matter what happens. Hope that helps!

[MonElite]

Whatever you choose as a hand signal is your "problem" however the commonly used one is an open hand in front of dogs nose, almost as if it wanted to go foward it would hit your hand with its nose. Its a clear big hand signal.

As Tess mentioned do time, than distance than distractions.

So waiting for food although its one briliant idea might be to much of a distraction in the beginning for some dogs. If you going to do thsi, at least have the dog on lead so it can be correted if need be.

Also after the stay if you recall the dog it teached the dog a sequence of events and it might anticipate the next step and break the stay.

So dog in a sit or a down, clear hand signal and you stay with the dog dont go anywhere. Release and reward when you happy with the time that the dog stayed. Start from really smal periods increase them gradually, but vary the time so the dog doesnt know how long is THIS stay going to be.

When happy with the time the dog is staying take one step away. if the dog stays go back and reward. Work on that for a while increasing the time at one step away at first, insead of going a second step away.

Go back to your dog to reward dont recall it. If you dont want to go back you can give a release word and the dog can go wherever it wants.

Do it on lead first or tie the dog up, in case it will want to bolt.

If the dog moves go back and put it in the original position.

You might do an arghh the moment it moves - you need the good timing for that.

Gradually increase time, than distance than add distractions.

If you are happy with lets say a 5 minutes at your feet and want to move on to some distance than drop the time. So 5 min at your feet is a move to lets say 1 minute at a 2 step distance.

Clear as mud?

[sidoney]

Very quickly, if you are teaching the hand target, don't use the usual obedience stay signal, the open hand in front of the nose - this would conflict.

I prefer to not say stay or wait. If I say sit, that means sit until I say the next thing.

Remember to reward, praise etc. in position. Then release quietly, don't make a fuss of the dog after the release. If you release and then reward ... what are you rewarding? The release!

If teaching the say in a down, teach the dog to tip its back end over so its weight is more on one hip, rather than having the hind legs in a crouched position. That crouched position is good for a wait in a down, when it's going to be released, but the relaxed lying position helps the dog to settle.

[chezzyr]

ummm yeah clear as mud ;)

Thankyou for the input everyone! At class we were encouraged early in the piece to teach waiting for food.

I CAN see that I probably shouldnt call her when she has been sitting/staying at my request but rather I should go back to her. I will work on that. And I will try to change my command from "wait" to "stay". She gives me the strangest looks when I want her to wait, the ears go down, her eyes do strange things and its like she is trying to mock me Funny thing.

A few mins ago I took her out of the backyard and down the driveway to check the letter box (normally she would try to rush out). I had her on the (yucky) retractable lead. I kept hold of it but had it out long. Was prepared to step on it if I had to. Surprisingly she didnt dash out, she stayed near me and even sat when we got to the letter box. I got her to "look" at me and she did so even though school boys were going past, cars etc. So that was something. Maybe the classes and home training sessions are starting to kick in!

[MonElite]

ummm yeah clear as mud

Thankyou for the input everyone! At class we were encouraged early in the piece to teach waiting for food.

And you should, its one of the crutial things you should do with the dog.

Just remember that if you are practicing stay as an excercise and your dog is extremly food motivated and very very hungry at the time of the excercise it will be more likely to break the stay.

Look on K9s website for Triangle of Temptation - it is a detailed description of how to do the wait for food (and not only) and it also teaching a stay.

Yes by all means make the dog wait for its food, from day one.

Just aknowledged that for SOME dogs it might be a very big distraction.

[chezzyr]

Thought I would just add that I do carry treats to help "reinforce" if that makes sense but actually my dog isnt over the top about treats. She responds far better to an enthusiastic "good girl" and a cuddle. Whereas she is more ho hum about food. I dont know why that is

[BOF]

No-one else has mentioned it but do NOT make eye contact with your dog while it is in a stay. Look over its head or to the side but do not make eye contact as this will guarantee the dog will 'break' the stay.

[chezzyr]

NEVER knew that BOF! Is this standard?

[BOF]

Everyone I know does this and I am pretty sure that if you try it it will work.

[chezzyr]

ok I tried that and she is ok with it. I thought she might break because it was different. The lack of eye contact will be very odd. I know in some cases eye contact is considered threatening to dogs but I find my dog is always studying our eyes - its like she relies on it for communication or something??

[Guest Tess32]

I make eye contact, but it IS a bad habit as it makes out of sight stays VERY hard!

Nat

[BOF]

Eye contact is confronting to a dog. If your dog is the slightest bit afraid it will be put off by constant eye contact - BUT if you break eye contact after having taught the dog to look into your eyes then you create another problem. It's easier to never make eye contact. Just a habit I have used over the years and it worked particularly well for my extremely nervous girl. I have never had any problem with stays in competitive obedience - however, our heeling leaves a lot to be desired!!! (LOL)