Xia Is A Sheep Dog

[Kelpie-i]

Thanks for that Sidoney.

I hope Denise responds back.

[avenglenn]

Re the Bridge,

Hi Vickie - its not bad or not allowed.

The only problem - allowing the dog to jump off the end of the bridge is that you risk the chance of your dog crossing you as it comes off the bridge - so golden rule is if you have to force, let the dog walk up - push the sheep over the bridge and then make the dog come off the bridge (back towards you the handler) and around to cover and re-collect their sheep - and back on course to the next obstacle.

Then of course having to force on the bridge opens a whole new can of worms ) - however, sometimes it has to be done and teaching your dog to walk up the bridge is correct - just don't let the dog jump off the other end

You can obtain a copy of the three sheep rules from your local WSDA - if you not a member, just join up and register your dog and they will send you a welcome kit which includes the rules. Unfortunately the rules do vary from state to state, hopefully one day we will all work under the same rules )

Victoria has just introduced the hook pen (as used in New Zealand) for the cast, lift and draw - its a great idea and allows all dogs to have a good cast and even pick up.

Regards, Neece the Kelpie, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle

[avenglenn]

Avenpart Kelpies,

Hi Kelpie-i - I don't own Avenpart, Mary is my mentor and dearest friend. I also often take pups for Mary and raise them and return them for station work.

Kelpies are my love and I am very much attached to Avenpart - another stud that I do like is James Dudley Boanong and my girls carry a lot of his blood also- so I hope I don't rave on to much

The girls I keep are all part of Mary's breeding program - this allows her to have certain lines alway available. At the moment we have 3 girls - Avenpart Georgena, Yoshi and Firefox and another puppy on the way from Georgena x Boanong Leggo. I also like a lot of Karawarra in my lines and Georgena is the only bitch we have that does not carry a lot of Karawarra blood (she is Glenn's dog not mine) - Georgena is Xia's grandmother.

I have just returned to Mary - Avenpart Fidelia (Xia's mother) and Avenpart Fuente. Fidelia is now working with one of Mary's Jillaroos and Fuente is working cattle and sheep for the next few months at Avenel under Marys guidance - she will be joined shortly to Avenpart Wump.

Most importantly my girls are kept for trial work (apart from Georgena who is Glenn's all round station dog) so their training differs very much from that of a General Station Dog - the girls I keep are hand selected by Mary for me, specifically for trial work.

I would not say Avenparts are skittish - they are very much Station Bred dogs and as such very stable personalities, very loving dogs and very willing to learn and take direction. However, they have very strong personalities (as do all Kelpies). The only line of Mary's that can be arrogant is those with Cottonwood Matt in their breeding (sorry Xia)

Avenpart dogs are much finer than anything you will find in Victoria as they are bred to cover large distances in hard salt bush country (Mary runs 36,000 acres plus her two son's properties) - thus they are very long legged, fine boned / bodied dog - bred to take the heat and knocks of semi-outback Australia. Remember it is nothing for these dogs to travel 5km or more in a day to bring the sheep or cattle in - even just moving paddocks can take hours when you consider that an average paddock on Avenel is around 3000 acres.

I have been very happy with all my Avenparts - and Mary is one of the few studs still breeding true paddock type dogs - and to date Firefox is shaping up as the best three sheep kelpie I have (and maybe ever will own).

I suppose it all comes down to what people want in a Kelpie - I don't want yard type dogs as I don't like competing in Yard Dog Trials (Mary also breeds yard type dogs) - Greg Prince once told me that you can train a Labrador to be a Yard Dog.

I like Kelpies bred first and foremost for paddock work - that is just my personal view and what I like in my Kelpies.

Many people enjoy Yard Dog Trialling and there are many good Kelpies bred for this type of work - in fact Kelpies are not very good at three sheep trialling - which makes it even more challenging - and also why I purchased a trial bred border collie for three sheep work

Neece, the Kelpies, Bilie the Border and Travis the Poodle

[mjk05]

I suppose it all comes down to what people want in a Kelpie - I don't want yard type dogs as I don't like competing in Yard Dog Trials (Mary also breeds yard type dogs) - Greg Prince once told me that you can train a Labrador to be a Yard Dog.

Ouch That's quite a statement- I know what he means, yard trials are more forgiving than 3 sheep, but getting a top score in a yard trial isn't easy (maybe for Greg, but not for most).

I'd also like to point out (for people who don't do WSDA trials) that most people who do "yard trials" are actually doing utility trials (yard scores used separately for the yard competition), so the dogs are required to do a paddock section. I've heard a few good triallers talk about utility trialling as being the ultimate sport, because it does require all round dogs. I know they especially appeal to farmers, for whom a large part of dogs' useful work will be in the yards. While most 3sheep dogs are also good working dogs, 3sheep is a more stylised "sport", more removed from daily farm work.

I'm not trialling yet, but I also prefer the paddock-style kelpies, and I think I will prefer 3sheep trials. But I wouldn't dismiss utility/yard trials as the easy option, or requiring no natural instinct!

[avenglenn]

Absolutely agree, there are some fantastic Yard and Utility dogs out there both Kelpies and Borders. Jenny Cox has some excellent Borders who do Yard / Utility and Three Sheep work - however I guess if your Greg Prince and have won at the top level in both you can make such statements ;) And in fairness to Greg I do know he injured a very good dog in a Yard Trial - to the point it could never compete again.

I would never make such a statement as I have not won at the top level in either sport

Yard Dog / Utility Trials are not an easy option - I have watched many and my girls will be competing in the Kelpie Nationals when they come to Victoria in 2006 - so they will be doing some serious backing and yard work prior to this event.

All my dogs are taught to back - in fact Yoshi's last litter we did not get one paddock dog, they are all the most natural backers I have ever seen and will be competing in Yard Dog Trials - genetics strike again

Its just a personal thing with me - I don't like to enter Yard Trials because of the hustle and bustle involved and if my dogs are ever going to get hurt it is in the Yards. In three sheep its much more sedate and calm and the chances of injury are greatly reduced.

Utility trials are also good - and now that they are changing the Utility Obstacles to make it more like real work (closing end of bridge etc) and the handler can assist the dog I think this is a great step forward and should make for great competition.

Regards,

Neece the Kelpies, Billie the Border and Travis the poodle

[Kelpie-i]

Avenglenn

Thanks heaps for that insight that was very interesting.

Kelpie Nationals when they come to Victoria in 2006 - so they will be doing some serious backing and yard work prior to this event.

Any more information about the Kelpie Nationals?? Where can I find out about this?

Our bitch is more a paddock dog with some very good backing skills that are slowly flourishing, but she also enjoys the yard work. She's stronger in the paddock however. We just haven't had the chance to get her out with sheep of late so she's not too impressed with us at the moment.

however I guess if your Greg Prince and have won at the top level in both you can make such statements

I suppose if you were Greg Prince or Paul McPhail for that matter, you could make any statement you wanted to about Kelpies. ;)

[sidoney]

So should I just try a bit of everything with Xia and see where her strengths lie?

[Vickie]

COME BACK THIS WEEKEND!!!

It'll be good for her ;)

And you'll get to meet 2-3 more lovely DOLers.

ETA...and before you say no, YOU HAVE TO! I just found out I'm geting a new lense tomorrow 70-300. I need you there to use it!

WOOHOO!

Edited August 10, 2005 by Vickie

[Vickie]

Re the Bridge,

Hi Vickie - its not bad or not allowed.

The only problem - allowing the dog to jump off the end of the bridge is that you risk the chance of your dog crossing you as it comes off the bridge - so golden rule is if you have to force, let the dog walk up - push the sheep over the bridge and then make the dog come off the bridge (back towards you the handler) and around to cover and re-collect their sheep - and back on course to the next obstacle.

Then of course having to force on the bridge opens a whole new can of worms ) - however, sometimes it has to be done and teaching your dog to walk up the bridge is correct - just don't let the dog jump off the other end

You can obtain a copy of the three sheep rules from your local WSDA - if you not a member, just join up and register your dog and they will send you a welcome kit which includes the rules. Unfortunately the rules do vary from state to state, hopefully one day we will all work under the same rules ;))

Victoria has just introduced the hook pen (as used in New Zealand) for the cast, lift and draw - its a great idea and allows all dogs to have a good cast and even pick up.

Regards, Neece the Kelpie, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle

Thanks Denise,

That all makes sense. It'll be interesting to see what she does with lighter sheep (that is if we can get anywhere near the bridge ). The ones at training need to be pushed. They use obstacles as their safety haven.

I'll join the WSDA this week. ;) It'll probably scare the sh*t out of me when I read the rules. :D

Another question for you, since you mentioned crossing. Do you ever teach inside flanks to your dogs? No-one up here does it as they are terrified it will encourage the dog to cross.

[avenglenn]

Hi Vickie - still figuring out how to use this so not sure how to put a quote in -

>>Another question for you, since you mentioned crossing. Do you ever teach inside flanks to your dogs? No-one up here does it as they are terrified it will encourage the dog to cross.

Good question. I don't because like everyone else I am terrified it will teach my dogs to cross - yes I am a chicken also (LOL).

And we don't really have any trials in Australia where we need to drive - except the Trans Tasman and we don't get many of those courses.

Glenn has taught Gena to Drive and Cross Drive, however, it took her a while to get the hang of it as she does a fair amount of work out of a ute and you can't have a dog crossing between the sheep and the ute (they tend to get run over) So he can only drive with her on foot.

Now the New Zealanders and I will use Alistair Dickinson as an example (because he lives near me and I have been doing some training with him). He teaches his NZ Heading Dogs (all the NZder trainers do) to drive because he still competes in both NZ Long Head trials and Australian Three Sheep Trials.

He is a believer it should not matter - the dog knows the difference - when it is permitted to cross and when not. He believes that the dog is close to you on a three sheep course and therefore its training teaches it not to cross when this close to the handler.

When driving the dog is a good distance away and is working under a different set of commands and whistles - thus the cross is acceptable to the dog.

Now we must remember Alistair is an amazing trainer - has won just about everything there is to win both in NZ and Australia. Also those NZ handlers can move their dogs on whistle about a centimetre at a time - they have commands to tell their dogs to walk, trot, canter - move left 1cm then move right 2cm etc - if you ever get a chance to see the NZders trial in a Long Head it is a real treat.

So my thoughts - if you want to compete in three sheep, I would not teach the inside flank - however you may not want to join the rest of us Chickens? Maybe you would prefer to be a Rooster and go for it girl

Regards,

Neece the Kelpies, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle

[avenglenn]

RE WKC Nationals

Hi Kelpie-i,

The 2005 trials are on very soon in WA this year. If you join the WKC this will keep you updated with all that is happening - theys end out monthly new bulletins etc.

Re if you visit Mary's page - I raised the dog on the entry page - Nulla Nulla - he lived with me from 6 weeks of age until he was about 18 months old and then went to become a station dog with Mary. I started him and did most of his basice sheepwork training. Now he is one of Mary's mainstays and he works every day on both sheep and cattle.

I still have a soft spot for him, he still plays loves to play Frisbee and retrieves sticks from the River (Mary always gives him a few minutes of play each day after work) - and give him big kisses and cuddles when I vist Avenel. See working dogs can still play and have another life.

Best regards,

Neece the Kelpies, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle

[Vickie]

So my thoughts - if you want to compete in three sheep, I would not teach the inside flank - however you may not want to join the rest of us Chickens?  Maybe you would prefer to be a Rooster and go for it  girl 

Thanks for that Denise.

I find it an interesting subject. I wanna be a Rooster! Right now I'll just settle for any semi reliable flanks, but I would like to get to that point one day.

The best response I heard about inside flanks was this:

Q: Aren't you worried inside flanks will teach your dog to cross?

A: My dog will only take a flank if I tell it to. If I don't want it to cross...I won't give it the flank.

It'll be interesting. A number of triallers that I train with atm, are obsessed with teaching their dogs to drive & cross-drive right now. So maybe things will change.

Edited August 11, 2005 by Vickie

[avenglenn]

The best response I heard about inside flanks was this:

Q: Aren't you worried inside flanks will teach your dog to cross?

A: My dog will only take a flank if I tell it to. If I don't want it to cross...I won't give it the flank.

Hi Vickie,

Well that makes sense because in a three sheep trial you are always relatively close to your sheep - so the chances of the dog crossing can be controlled - Alistair would say something like this.

Interest point with Gena - if I try to drive with her, she won't - she will run back behind me to change her directions (flank)- I can be 100m away and she will still come all the way back and around me to change her direction - never would she cross between me and the sheep. Now I think she knows that I always three sheep trial her - Glenn does general work with her - so she has no issue with crossing between Glenn and the sheep.

One set of rules with me - another set with Glenn !!!! Dogs are smart - they never cease to amaze me with their intelligence!!!

Where do you train at ? Why are they all wanting to teach the drive and cross drive (I think its good - just curious why) - is it so they can say they can do it?

I may join you being a Rooster and see if I can teach Matti to drive

Don't hold you breath it may take me a while - not sure I am even a good enough trainer to do it - she is very hard to pull off the head of her sheep - has way to much eye which is why she is not a great three sheep dog - often sticks on me despite all the training we do to counteract it

Neece the Kelpies, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle

[kateshep]

I've heard a few good triallers talk about utility trialling as being the ultimate sport, because it does require all round dogs.

Isn't the ultimate thing though a dogs ability to do real work ? how important is sport to the breed ?

I've heard stories of border collies coming from only trial ( 3-sheep) bloodlines and not being able to do farm work at all.

[mjk05]

Isn't the ultimate thing though a dogs ability to do real work ? how important is sport to the breed ?

I've heard stories of border collies coming from only trial ( 3-sheep) bloodlines and not being able to do farm work at all. 

That's why utility trials are a bit more "real" than 3 sheep- in utility the dog has to be able to go out and get the sheep, fetch them into the yards, then work sheep through the yards, then take some out into the paddock again and work them round obstacles. Its a bit more like real farm work than 3sheep, where its all paddock. But its a big ask for dogs to have the qualities to do both very well, so most people have paddock dogs and yard dogs, and use them in different situations. The yard specialists tend to be direct, pushy and forceful, with bark and bite if needed, and the paddock types are all style, distance and pretty footwork. Most dogs can do a bit of both, but dogs that do both well are impressive.

Most of the 3 sheep dogs here are working farm dogs too (from necessity as much as anything). Most triallers are farmers, most farmers can't afford to have dogs kept aside for trialling only. Most of our 3 sheep dogs can work well in yards (BC and kelpie), and most do both utility/yard and 3sheep trials.

I've been told there's a good reason we don't drive a lot in our trials compared with other countries, and don't encourage dogs to cross. Apparently our merinos are much lighter/more runny than British breeds, and don't like being driven. The heavier meat breed sheep are happy to be pushed from behind by dogs, but the merinos (apparently) tend to take off running if the dog gets behind them with nothing to balance.

If you are using well-dogged sheep, that's not such a problem, but if you're out working sheep that rarely see dogs, its more of an issue.

I don't know the truth in that- I think the NZ trials have a lot of driving, and don't they have merinos? And the US ISDS style trials have lots of driving, and don't they often use Barbs/Katahdin/etc that are supposed to be very light?

For people who are teaching an inside flank, are you using a different command for the dog to come in vs. flanking behind you?

[avenglenn]

I've heard a few good triallers talk about utility trialling as being the ultimate sport, because it does require all round dogs.

I would agree - however, how many utility trials are run a year - maybe 4 or 5 in the whole of Australia - maybe a few more, however, not many at all compared to the other types of trials?

So that leaves, Yard Dog Trials and Three Sheep Trials - and then it depends on the dog you have - sometimes we don't get the choice of what we want to do it comes down to the dogs strengths. Some dogs, no matter how much training are not going to make it in the three sheep world - they are born to be yard dogs - and some dogs are born to be paddock dogs.

And Border Collies are the ultimate three sheep trial dog - that coming from a Kelfpie devotee - however, it is very true and I can speak from experience.

In Victoria we have a lot of breeders who just breed Borders for the Three Sheep Trial ring - I purchased my border (Viewfield Billie) from such a stud - as I knew what I wanted - I wanted first and foremost a three sheep trial dog - don't have a need for a dog that can work on the farm - I wanted footwork and style.

My neighbours who also wants to get into three sheep trial have just recently purchased to Farm Bred Borders (against my advise, however, they did not want to spend large amount of money on a trial bred dog).

Now there is no comparison between the farm bred dogs and the trial bred dog. Billie (trial bred) has amazing foot work and cover (on three sheep), natural cast, natural break - and can dance backwards on the head of her sheep naturally while they continue to walk towards her (give ground)- she is a born and bred trial dog.

Kellie and Tess (farm bred) - can move sheep like farm dogs, I been honest with my nneighbours (they are also good friends) that these dogs will never make in the world of three sheep trialling - it is just a fact.

[BubbleGirl]

My head hurts Truly hope I am at some point capable at doing just the basics, totally amazing how much goes into it Your all AMAZING

Vickie will be out with Rosie on weekend of 3 Sept.

Riles

[mjk05]

however, how many utility trials are run a year - maybe 4 or 5 in the whole of Australia - maybe a few more, however, not many at all compared to the other types of trials?

I'd hope there'd be more- in WA we have 3 or 4 utility trials a year. And we don't have yard trials on their own- we only have utility trials, and most people run the utility course, get one score for that (total) and the score from their yard section is taken out and used again for the yard competition. A few people do enter their dogs just for the yard section, but most people run the whole utility course, even if they don't expect a good score for the paddock work.

Obviosuly that's a regional difference. Do you have yard trials on their own?

And Border Collies are the ultimate three sheep trial dog -  that coming from a Kelfpie devotee - however, it is very true and I can speak from experience.

I know what you mean, but that doesn't mean kelpies can't do 3sheep well (guessing you agree, since you're doing it ). We might be a small part of the trialling world, but considering how few kelpies are entered in 3 sheep trials, they do feature in our places fairly often. Maybe its a fairly modern phenomenon, kelpies being bred more exclusively for yard work and having lost some of their style?

Personally I don't see an issue with people doing 3sheep with dogs that aren't going to be top winning dogs (as long as they are realistic, as you mentioned). I'm never going to placed, but I just want to be involved in the sport. If people (like my OH) need dogs that can work daily on the farm or out on contract work, they don't have space for dogs just for sport, so they look for dogs that can work in yards and use force on a mob if needed, but go OK in the paddock on 3 on the weekends.

Luckily most of our top 3 sheep triallers also do utility trials (with the same dogs)- and dogs that are from good 3 sheep lines do well in utility/yard trials. If you look at last year's Supreme results, the dogs (BCs) that placed 2nd (Grassvalley Lisa), 6th (Boylee Pepper) and 8th (came 4th in semis- Princes Tom) are all good utility/yard dogs. In fact Grassvalley Lisa (Grant Cooke) came 2nd at the Supreme, and won our State Utility Championship in the same year. Good all-round dog

So I don't think its mutually exclusive- and there are some triallers here breeding/looking for kelpies to restore some stylish paddock work, and hopefully they'll start featuring more in the 3 sheep placings.

[mjk05]

I also meant to add that sometimes I think its better to start out in a new sport with a dog that's not super-talented... gives you more room to learn and mess about without ruining a brilliant dog Especially for people without lots of sheep/dog experience, like me- we are going to spend a lot of time mucking up trials just because I can't read sheep or dog correctly, and don't have my timing right, knowing where to put the dog when, and all those little subtle "shepherding, without actually shepherding" tricks the masters use. So I'm happy to have a "learner" dog to start with, and hopefully when I get a really good well-bred trialling dog I will have some idea what I'm doing

[avenglenn]

And we don't have yard trials on their own- we only have utility trials, and most people run the utility course, get one score for that (total) and the score from their yard section is taken out and used again for the yard competition.

Wow - you guys in WA are lucky - we have about 2 Utility Trials a year if that - we either have Yard Trials or Three Sheep Trials and they have just introduced Cattle Trials which I am planning on entering next year - if I am brave enough.

I have been told that Ken Atherton is a master at working Kelpie in a Three Sheep Trial - Ken has very similiar lines to me as at one stage we were considering sending Gena over to one of his dogs - however the breeding was to similiar, so there was no point.

So hoping one day to get over and meet and watch Ken work.

Not sure that working a dog in three sheep trial that does not have the talent - for me it would be frustrating and I am not that good a handler - that is just me and other people may find it different.

Anyway, we may have another three sheep border joining the kelpies soon - in negotiations at the moment to buy a dog that has been started by a very good handler and is almost ready to trial - I have seen her work and I do like her a great deal )

Need the Kelpies, Billie the Border and Travis the Poodle