Cure For What Ails Your Dog

[GreatDanz]

A thought Jeanne, the reason dogs rarely come down with food related infections such as salmonella poisoning, is because their digestive tract IS short. Bugs are not in there long enough to cause trouble.

Actually, the reason dogs don't come down with these types of bacterial infections is because of the chemical makeup of their digestive system. Practically the whole gastrointestinal tract of a carnivore is sterile. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach ensures that most bacteria and other micro-organisms food are killed, those that escape the stomach are rarely able to survive the digestive processes.

In the small intestine food is digested and enters the blood stream. I would imagine that any dog that lost that much small intestine would need some sort of easily digestible food, it seems like plain lean meat would be the best choice. Fats are more difficult to digest, so I would stay away from fatty meats and trim any cuts I gave.

[Toohey]

Actually, the reason dogs don't come down with these types of bacterial infections is because of the chemical makeup of their digestive system. Practically the whole gastrointestinal tract of a carnivore is sterile. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach ensures that most bacteria and other micro-organisms food are killed, those that escape the stomach are rarely able to survive the digestive processes.

That is another reason dogs don't often get food poisoning.

This dog would do best on thoroughly vitamised food.

[arawnhaus]

SAS

greyhoundangel, GoodLink

Great danez, perhaps this should be called "The meat thread!"

I wont say anymore

[GreatDanz]

"Greatdanz - meat, offal, bones. P:Ca ratio?

Complete? Balanced?"

Hi Jed,

I don't worry too much about measuring out the exact amounts of each type given, I just make sure they get a little of everything every week.

Their meals generally go like this:

Mickey (white dane, male, 193.5 lbs, 1 year 7 months)

Daily: chicken with bones, usually chicken quarters; ground beef with bone meal and other meat pre-mix (see Java's meals); pork ribs....

Twice a week: Organs, usually mixed in gr. beef, and Tripe, they LOVE green tripe!; raw or slightly cooked eggs; fish (usually canned)

Any time: Recreational bones, i.e. marrow bones

Java (fawn dane, male, 165 lbs., 2 years 6 months)

Daily: Ground beef with bone meal, mixed in with some sort of other meat like cornish hen, lamb, rabbit (these are usually ordered ground pre-mix with some pureed veggies and organs already in there). Java will NOT eat bones, so I use the bone meal to provide critical nutrients that otherwise would be absent.

Twice a week: Organs, usually mixed in gr. beef, and Tripe; raw or slightly cooked eggs; fish (usually canned)

Any time: Recreational bones, i.e. marrow bones

[idle hands]

Hmmmm, greatdanz.......

I read your ramblings; perhaps you need a balanced diet?

Might I suggest two servings of reality, together with a side salad of humility?

It would appear that not all of us want your dietary fascism shoved down our dogs throats.

No one has taken your challenge; it's not worth bothering with.

idle hands

[GreatDanz]

Hmmmm, greatdanz.......

I read your ramblings; perhaps you need a balanced diet?

Might I suggest two servings of reality, together with a side salad of humility?

It would appear that not all of us want your dietary fascism shoved down our dogs throats.

No one has taken your challenge; it's not worth bothering with.

idle hands

Have you ever heard the saying "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all"?

I'm sorry you find my challenge so threatening, I can only assume you do because of your unwarranted attack.

I have simply provided scientific data on why domestic dogs would thrive on a raw diet, why are you threatened by that?

Don't be afraid, give it a try, you'll be so pleased at the benefits your dog will reap!

[GreatDanz]

Actually, the reason dogs don't come down with these types of bacterial infections is because of the chemical makeup of their digestive system.  Practically the whole gastrointestinal tract of a carnivore is sterile. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach ensures that most bacteria and other micro-organisms food are killed, those that escape the stomach are rarely able to survive the digestive processes.

That is another reason dogs don't often get food poisoning.

This dog would do best on thoroughly vitamised food.

When you say "that is another reason", what do you mean by that?

Also, please provide more information on your suggestion of a thoroughly vitamised food. What are the benefits to this situation?

[idle hands]

Hmmmm, greatdanz.......

I read your ramblings; perhaps you need a balanced diet?

Might I suggest two servings of reality, together with a side salad of humility?

It would appear that not all of us want your dietary fascism shoved down our dogs throats.

No one has taken your challenge; it's not worth bothering with.

idle hands

Have you ever heard the saying "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all"?

I'm sorry you find my challenge so threatening, I can only assume you do because of your unwarranted attack.

I have simply provided scientific data on why domestic dogs would thrive on a raw diet, why are you threatened by that?

Don't be afraid, give it a try, you'll be so pleased at the benefits your dog will reap!

Your smugness is only exceeded by your scientific inccuraracy. You cut and paste selected articles from the web (we all could do that but we dont) and say that they prove your case

Ever wondered why so many here on DOL are asking you to prove your points? Could it be that possibly you don't have a leg to stand on ? Or possibly you've chewed off that leg and limped home on three?

I don't find your challenge threatening; ho hum. I doubt that any of us do. I do find your tone patronizing.

idle hands

[GreatDanz]

Don't be afraid, give it a try, you'll be so pleased at the benefits your dog will reap!

Your smugness is only exceeded by your scientific inccuraracy. You cut and paste selected articles from the web (we all could do that but we dont) and say that they prove your case

Ever wondered why so many here on DOL are asking you to prove your points? Could it be that possibly you don't have a leg to stand on ? Or possibly you've chewed off that leg and limped home on three?

I don't find your challenge threatening; ho hum. I doubt that any of us do. I do find your tone patronizing.

idle hands

UM, yea, it's called evidence.

I don't see anyone asking me to prove my point, I see people providing good information and asking legitimate questions. Unlike you, who apparently has nothing better to do than leave ignorant immature posts like this.

BTW, STILL waiting for your "proof" that what I am saying is inaccurate, or could it be that you don't have any and you're just a TROLL looking for a pissing match? Either way, you obviously don't have anything useful to add.

Edited August 1, 2005 by GreatDanz

[Prydenjoy]

Oh Anne, I can see why you were so confused

She got desexed and when left alone tore open the stitches and atE her intestines. When her carer arrived home she arrived to a bloody mess and rushed her to the vets, thank doG she survived, she is such a beautiful dog! She has got such a sensitive stomach now though, the vets gave her a bag of Hills and once she finnished that she went on to a normal kibble that the rest of the RSPCA dogs were fed on, and she got terribly ill. I think they are trying to get Hills to supply them with food for her because it never gets donated, and despite their claims to provide RSPCA animals all around the country with food it is simply not true. If she were mine I would feed her high quality food with plenty of probiotics, I believe you can get food that is kind of like "predigested" or something? Not sure, but thats the sort of thing I'd have her on, I just hope she doesn't go to someone who thinks it's ok to feed pal

Here's Gretchen:

As to them not getting ill because of their short digestive tracts, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't go messing about with a dogs life because of something "I'm not sure" about.

[raz]

In the meantime, some prozac may help with your little problem, I still don't understand your animosity.

Have you read How to Win Friends and Influence People by any chance?

[Prydenjoy]

Have you read How to Win Friends and Influence People by any chance?

Hey I've got that book

Only got through half of it though, and that was years ago so I've forgotten all the "lessons"

[GreatDanz]

In the meantime, some prozac may help with your little problem, I still don't understand your animosity. 

Have you read How to Win Friends and Influence People by any chance?

Have you?

[raz]

Yep. Pretty good read, too.

Sun Tsu's Art of War might be a good one for your bookcase as well

[fifi]

sigh, it would be nice if this thread could be about the food folks!!

and yes, no one likes to be preached to, Greatdanz, maybe you could re-name the thread - meat based diet DISCUSSION! I'd hate to see it deleted because its become a bloody slanging match.

I think calling it a challenge and daring us to try it, immediatly puts well informed or enquiring minds into a defensive position. And feels like you are being morally superior. Its easy to be passionate and over zealous about dogs and health.

I'm enjoying the variety of sources and information though.

fifi

[raz]

I think Greatdanz has picked up on my aussie style of humour, Fifi. Note she has been infected by the bug.

ETA: I'm actually considering taking up the challenge after reading this thread. I even subscribed to a raw food yahoo group.

Edited August 2, 2005 by raz

[Prydenjoy]

Which one? There are a few, some are better than others. Barfingk9sinoz (I think thats its name) is a good, Australian one, but I'm not sure if it's a yahoo group or another email list thingie... it's fairly quiet but when you do ask a question it does get answered

Oh and I like that it's Australian too, you get word of Aussie suppliers, bargains etc and you can also meet the people sometimes

ETA link for barfingk9s_inoz

Edited August 2, 2005 by Jeanne

[fifi]

Oh and I like that it's Australian too, you get word of Aussie suppliers, bargains etc and you can also meet the people sometimes

Hey Jeanne, speaking of raw food stuff, have you figured out a way to start getting the Bigdog meat supplies?

fifi

[espinay2]

A thought Jeanne, the reason dogs rarely come down with food related infections such as salmonella poisoning, is because their digestive tract IS short. Bugs are not in there long enough to cause trouble.

Yes, as a carnivore, a dogs intestines is much shorter than a humans or other animal designed to eat vegetable matter.

Lets look at the dogs digestive system

The jaws of a dog move in an up and down motion with a crushing vice-like action. Unlike an animal that is designed to eat grains and vegetable matter they can not move their jaws from side to side in a masticating/grinding motion. Their teeth, including their molars, are sharp and pointy designed to crush and rip apart, not flat like the grinding teeth of plant eaters. They have prominant canine teeth in the front designed to, pierce, hold and rip.

Unlike humans, whose saliva contains enzymes which start the digestion process, the saliva of a dog is merely for lubrication. Teeth, jaws and saliva act to crush and tear large pieces so they can slide down to the stomach, often in large pieces.

The stomach has a high degree of acidity - much higer than a humans - this is where a majority of the digestion process to break up the food takes place.

The intestines are short and are smooth, unlike a humans which is ribbed. Food can transit fairly quickly through the intestines, particularly when it is not slowed down by the presence of grains which do tend to slow the progress of food through the digestion process.

The high acidity and quick digestion time all contribute to a decreased chance of problems with bacteria. Remember, dogs (and wolves, and dingos, in fact all animals within the classification Canis Lupus) are designed to be not only hunters, but scavengers. Their system from start to finish is designed to take on large pieces of meat and bone often with a higher bacterial load than can be consumed by humans.

As for a dog that has a reduced length of intestines, this in itself i do not personally feel is of major concern, but rather the fact that her immune and digestive system have been compromised and will need supporting while it regains 'strength'. There is no reason that I can personally see why a dog such as this could not eat a raw diet, though certainly at first I would be sticking to foods which were in smaller pieces and more easily digested (probably ground at first, and later building to softer whole bones such as chicken necks and wings and then larger later as the dogs system becomes accustomed to them) and making sure that the dogs system was supported with probiotics and other antioxidants. Of course I have no knowledge of this actual dog and am only going on the information provided in this thread. It is only my personal feeling of what I may do if the dog were in my care.

Now lets all play nice shall we? After feeding a raw diet for over 10 years and running several major rawfeeding email lists, may I say that if nothing else I have learnt that you can catch more flies with honey and out and out confrontation tends to lead of the breakdown in discussion just like we have seen here. I do strongly believe in feeding a raw diet, have seen the benefits from doing so, and love teaching people about it, but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink (and beating them over the head with the bucket wont make them want it more). The horses will drink when they are good and ready, as long as we make sure the nice fresh clean inviting water is available to them .

Tracy

www.yahoogroups.com/groups/rawbreeder

Edited August 2, 2005 by espinay2

[Prydenjoy]

Hey Jeanne, speaking of raw food stuff, have you figured out a way to start getting the Bigdog meat supplies?

fifi

Haven't heard back from Chris yet, but I'll email him now

As for Gretchen eating raw, well I KNOW my dogs are fine eating raw, so many people feed raw to healthy dogs every day with no problem, and I suppose there would also be no problem with feeding a dog less six foot of intestine raw, but I dont know that because I'm not sure if anyone has ever tried it, for all we know it affects the acidity in the stomach etc, so I still probably wouldn't do it. However, I would possibly feed meat seared on each side but still raw in the middle, but until I had seen other dogs in this condition eating totally raw meat without problem I would probably play it safe and not feed it at all