Vickie Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) I thought I'd start a new thread for this, since there has been some great discussion on the Stop topic. I got this email from a friend & thought I would include some of his comments (with his permission) as I think they are interesting & thought provoking: There are many theories on training sheep dogs and some people prefer to have absolute control on the dog too the point of taking out all initiative and it is a credit to the breed that they will work like this. Interestingly if you have a look at the trial results or even entries over the last 5 years you will find very few dogs which continue to compete year after year they often come unstuck or start to get burnt out. The dogs which do compete competetively year after year are usually the dogs which are used in real work. I mentioned this to a number of experienced handlers and they agreed with me that constant control burns the dogs out and that when dogs are actually doing real farm work that very little direction is given to the dogs. By judicial use of command and working quietly and freely the dog learns to relax in its work and often responds more quickly to commands when given less frequently. My personal opinion is that if you dont allow the dog to take initiative and to work things out for itself it will never work reliably away from you. The less natural ability a dog has the more command/ assistance it will need but even with X as long as everything is moving along quietly I dont say anything. There are different schools of thought but my thinking is that often people who over command their dogs lack the confidence to allow their dog to show initiative as they may fear loss of control. Traditional shepherding has a very different rationale in training a dog than does obedience training. The aim and challenge in training a sheep dog is to find the right balance between control and independance. this is a real challenge and the problem is that what looks like a good drill for instance the moving full circle on command may infact teach another thing less desirable. My personal thought on this is that you shouldnt break down speecefic drills and work on them independantly of the whole process of sheep work. By this I mean that every movement / command will have an impact upon the sheep which inb turn will affect the drill. The only time I would encourage the dog to come right round 360 is if it is continually getting stuck and wont move off or when dry training around a stationary ball etc. Becuase the ball doesnt move you can teach sides quite easily with out it impacting upon the dogs work. When I plan what I want to achieve in a training session I always take into account the big picture and try to think how what I want to achieve will ffect the over all work of the dog. If you want to see how good some ones dog is ask them to send it after some sheep where it will have to navigate a gate or some other obstacle in order to bring the sheep back and ask them to do it without commanding the dog. Then you will see how good that dog really is. Many will just bring it straight to the fence and get stuck or carry on. That is becuase in many cases the dog hasnt been allowed to develop problem solving abilities. When ever possible I try and let the dog think things out before giving assistance. Any way enough rambling- Edited July 27, 2005 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 It's good to see that herding is actually a popular subject! Very interesting write-up Vickie. I tend to agree where he says about the dogs burning out if they are not allowed to use their own initiative ie, if not doing normal work. I was told the same thing by our herding trainer and it rings true. I wonder why this would be b/c you can put a dog through various obedience trials without burning them out, but herding is so very different. Perhaps it's because we continuously try to control their strong instinct and perhaps eventually kill it :rolleyes: If you want to see how good some ones dog is ask them to send it after some sheep where it will have to navigate a gate or some other obstacle in order to bring the sheep back and ask them to do it without commanding the dog. This sort of thing is seen when some dogs are working (ie farm work) and also is a requirement in the Open trials. Our previous dog Blue, never won any trophies in trials but is worth his weight in gold on the farm with the cattle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparty Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I would have thought in herding there is a hell of a lot more for the dog to concentrate on, sheep (multiples) and handler not going over the exercises that are continuously practiced and signals that are (hopefully) consistant from the handler so not as much variables ?? so guys is there anything i can practice with bodie until the next time we visit the sheep? Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) Perhaps it's because we continuously try to control their strong instinct and perhaps eventually kill it I'm not sure, I think part of it is drilling exercises that are not really in relation to the sheep. And I guess if you tell a dog often enough that something that actually feels right to them is wrong, then in any discipline, it would start to be tentative about making decisions. Another point he is making in the email is that often, drilling a certain thing can lead to other behaviours that are not desirable. I'm pretty excited, I am going to a clinic on Sunday with my club, to be conducted by the captain of the NZ team recently back from the World Sheepdog trials in Ireland. I have no idea what we'll be working on, or how it'll be conducted, but I think it's sure to be a valuable experience. Edited July 27, 2005 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidelis Border Collies Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I have one of those robot dogs where she needs to be told what to do all the time. Dave my partner an experience working dog man used to send her out the back door in the morning and get her to bring the sheep up from the back paddock on her own. I only have 5 acreas so its not a big distance and not even a hard job. She doesn't like thinking for herself and you often see her standing at the gate looking back at the house as if to say "well I am waiting when are you going to come out and tell me what to do" She is that type of dog unfortunately and i doubt will ever make a great dog. She is very well trained but not a natural working dog. Patrick on the other hand before we sent him back to America we would do the same thing and he would try his heart out. You could see him down the paddock moving them here and there and 70% of the time he would get them up to the house towards the end of his time here he was succeeding more often and alot quicker but at the start what a painfull exercise. Dave said you do this obviously with a dog that is not a biter and kind on the sheep. It teaches them to think for them selves and gets them to work independantly. TRACEY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 pretty excited, I am going to a clinic on Sunday with my club, to be conducted by the captain of the NZ team recently back from the World Sheepdog trials in Ireland. I have no idea what we'll be working on, or how it'll be conducted, but I think it's sure to be a valuable experience Wow Vickie, you must tell us what he says, sounds fantastic! I think I worded my last post incorrectly, didn't mean that we "kill" the instinct outright, but rather induce a sort of "fatigue" in the dog. I see your point Vickie where it's constant drilling of the dog which can cause problems such as alternative behaviours and induced sheep fatigue. I think as humans we sometimes don't think about the consequences of "over training" our dogs. We don't always get to work our girl and sometimes it's weeks inbetween and she seems almost refreshed and goes in all guns blazing - this can be a good thing! I would like download some video footage of Blue working to show you guys. He actually drives the flock on his own! Pretty amazing to watch this dog. The footage was taken at Casterton Vic, just before the auctions this June. The footage runs for approx 3 mins, so was wondering if anyone here has some tips on how I can upload and compress it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 How big is the file? If it's under 10mb, you can email it to me & I'll compress it as much as I can & put it on youtube. I'd love to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Not me, Kelpie-i .... sorry! (I'm such a computer clutz!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 These threads are really interesting to read. Thanks for posting that email, Vickie – it raises important points. Reading discussions like this make me realize that I have been really lucky in having a trainer (and friend) who has a working sheep farm, and was prepared to be very patient with Kirra and me last year while we were getting over our early bad habits, and while I was learning enough about stock to be able to not mess Kirra up too much. I also have had the opportunity to watch my trainer and her (very experienced) stockman and their dogs working at many different jobs. And this year, Kirra and I have learnt enough to be able to do a variety of jobs around the farm. While we may never get the precision necessary for trials, I now know enough to be able to go with Kirra and get a mob of 200-250 sheep, gather them, and then drive them up to a kilometer to another part of their paddock, or to the yards. It’s not always pretty – and at times she loses her brain (and sometimes some of her sheep) – but now I know enough to just go and set up another gather, and let her fetch them for a while until she gets her act back in gear. Her gather is getting a bit longer all the time – about 75-100 metres on good flocking Merinos – although she will sometimes ring them before fetching them. Again – a trial fault – but for Kirra, it seems to be a way of her making sure she’s actually got control of the whole mob – so I don’t fuss her too much about it. Certainly for us, learning through working has been important – and is allowing what natural instinct Kirra has to develop (she’s show/performance bred). She has learned to work different sized mobs, to drive as well as fetch, and to work off-balance – like putting sheep in yards. Incidentally – going back to the stop thing – I have much more success getting a stop on her when she’s driving – both the pause/change flank stop as well as the real ‘stop right there’ sort of stop. Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 I'll try and get that footage up and running. I'll have to copy it from the tape onto the computer first. Then i'll see how I go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Okay, Here goes..... A bit of history about this dog first. We owned Blue for the first twelve months of his life where we gave him some basid obediece training and basic sheep herding work. He was an extremely aggressive dog (by nature only) as he was fully socialised etc etc. This dog was not meant for the suburban family! He was returned to the breeder/trainer, Paul McPhail who then trained him further on sheep and introduced him to cattle which he is now best at. He now has an outlet for his extremely high drives and aggression levels and works the cattle beautifully. The footage here shows him at Casterton in June 05, during the field "show", being worked by Paul. He fetched $5000 at the auctions later that day. BTW, keep a watch for the sheep that almost gets away! Hope it works.... Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Darned it didn't work....I'll try again tomorrow. Sorry guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 29, 2005 Author Share Posted July 29, 2005 Well??? It's tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cloverfdch Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 I too would love to see the video . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Alison~ Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Love the thread. It is great to see people that are truly interested in the natural working ability of their dogs and out there having a go. I totally agree with allowing a dog to work out situations for themselves and being able to develope their own ability to read the stock. I personally could not cope with a robotic animal that required a constant string of commands. By the end of the job you would either be or reaching for a few ;). That is just my two bobs worth. Anyway, Well done I am keen to have a look at the video you mentioned Kelpie-i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 29, 2005 Author Share Posted July 29, 2005 (edited) Glad to see another person here with some experience Alison. Have you got any pics of yours working? There are a heap of us here just starting out, so any ideas/experiences you have to share we'll all look forward to hearing. ETA: Hmmm...was just looking at your avatar...Riverina, half way between Sydney & Melb so when's the weekend clinic??? Edited July 29, 2005 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Okay guys please bear with me. The clip was over 100mb so Youtube was not going to take it. I am in the process of cutting it down...I initially said it was 3mins long but in actual fact its about 10! I'll get it up very soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Send Attempt!! ;) Be warned...it is a large file and may take a while to upload. I suggest you take your dogs out for a walk then make yourself a cup of java and hopefully by that time it should be ready to view. I've added some background music for your viewing pleasure If it doesn't work....I give up Blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 29, 2005 Author Share Posted July 29, 2005 YAY!!! It works! Loaded for me immediately. He is awesome and a pleasure to watch working. You can see why a dog that works like that could be worth so much money to a farmer. I assume he's being bred? How much of his training did you do? One day I'm going to go to those sale, purely to watch the dogs work all day! Love the music Thank you so much for persevering with it & loading it up. Hopefully after Sunday, I'll have some decent footage of Trim to load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Yay, I think I need a after all that! He is awesome and a pleasure to watch working. You can see why a dog that works like that could be worth so much money to a farmer. I assume he's being bred? How much of his training did you do? Yes he truly is an awesome dog, full of himself, but awesome nonetheless. He was sold to a breeder/farmer who will use him to work as well as breed from him I guess. His mother was sold to Sweden to work there, his father is still with Paul. The entire bloodline is tough and they are all "cattle" working lines. I did some initial basic obedience with him such as sit, drops, recalls etc. He was introduced to sheep as a young pup before we got him from Paul and then re-introduced him again at around 5 months of age. We did the initial balance, stop and backing work with him until he was 12 months - mainly my OH, the rest, especially the driving is Paul's own trumpet to blow! Paul is amazing with working dogs! Our bitch Tasha is Blue's half sister (same father), so she has the hardness/determination in her but is certainly a lot softer to work than Blue. I don't think she is of the right temperament to work the cattle though. There is some footage of Blue working cattle which I have seen and he is sensational. Not sure if you noticed when blue was "driving". It was when Paul was walking to the side and to the back of the sheep with Blue continuing to drive the sheep forward. This can be extremely difficult to teach b/c the dog has to learn a whole new set of rules - no balancing to the handler. This is our next thing to teach Tasha. I'll up load some footage of Tasha working...but not straight away as I need to get over this last experience first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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