Herding

[yogibear]

Hi

Loove the video very nice work

i went to my first herding trial ankc one that is and thought most of the dogs seemed out of control rushing the shep splitting themup they had a ball but it wasnt what i expected the one dog i saw and i did not see al the dogs but the one that i thought was really good and clever was a dog that had extensive background in obedience and really listened to her handler is it different when introducing dogs that may not have all the right instincts to sheep or is it done the same way

yb

[yogibear]

Hi lablover i too would have thought the dog would benefit from training away from the distraction on the main stop and recall then built up to working and coming away from sheep shows what i know lol

yb

[Vickie]

Yes. I am referring to a dog who has been taught the concept of sit very well, but in full prey drive (especially on a mark), requires weeks of education on stopping to a whistle command, never more so as distance from handler increases.

But can you see how it is different? I don't know anything about retrieving trials, but is it ever instictive for your dogs to stop at that point?

[Lablover]

Oh no. They do not want to stop, they want to retrieve.

I had a scare very early one winter morning while at a local football field while doing pattern work with one of my labs. I felt a tap on my shoulder, and jumped in fright. I turned around expecting the worst, but it was an elderly man with a border collie. He asked me what I was doing. I told him I was training send aways for blind training (from one set of football posts to another) which required me to stop the dog at a pile of bumpers, and cast the dog to another pile of bumpers. Anyway he observed for a while, then walked up to me again. He told me he used to have a sheep property in Gippsland and competed in herding trials. He called my dogs circus dogs, LOL. Best trained god damm circus dogs he had ever seen, LOL.

When anyone asks me nowadays at the football field what I am doing, I simply say I train for retrieving trials, which is like sheep dog training. Makes it easier that way.

[MolassesLass]

I have been to herding seminars in the past and attended herding Championships, but as I am so into retrieving training and trialling, I admit my memory of your concepts becomes dimmer by the day.

They are very different drives, so hard to compare. And I know nothing of retrieving so forgive me if I only give herding examples. ;)

Yes. I am referring to a dog who has been taught the concept of sit very well, but in full prey drive (especially on a mark), requires weeks of education on stopping to a whistle command, never more so as distance from handler increases.

Again, I still do not see why a dog would be confused as to what it was being asked. I can see that it may find it hard to obey however.

As I said earlier, the dog is introduced while on lead in a small pen, it's not like they're sent up the back of a 200 square kilometre paddock to retrieve a mob. They are on lead, very close to both sheep and handler and so the command "Sit" is not that different to one asked of them at a dog park with their friends about. And don't get me wrong, I certainly don't mean a dog will give a perfect stop within a day or anything, but I don't see it as a confusion for the dog to learn stop around the stock. I find it far easier to understand how a dog would be confused when told a command (such as "Come Bye" which is go clockwise around stock) without the stock around.

i went to my first herding trial ankc one that is

Where was it at YB and what levels was it?

the one that i thought was really good and clever was a dog that had extensive background in obedience and really listened to her handler

Was the dog really herding then or was it doing obedience with sheep involved? While of course there has to be handler involvement, if the handler is constantly directing the dog like a traffic cop, then IMO the dog isn't herding (it certainly isn't being given the oppurtunity to show instinct).

is it different when introducing dogs that may not have all the right instincts to sheep or is it done the same way

Dogs that live with sheep and can be exposed every day for just a few minutes will be taught differently to dogs that attend training classes for an hour once a week. There are different methods for the different styles of herding (between breeds etc), for the eventual size of the dog and for it's herding nature (i.e. very hard, very eye-y etc). That's why an experience teacher is a must.

[yogibear]

It was at kc park

no it was herding but it listened to her when asked to stop and get back well it listened better than some of the others that were at a higher level mind you as i said i could be all wrong just the dogs i saw didnt work neatly like the one on vickies video they tended to run a lot for the inexperienced being me it looked like dogs chasing sheep im comparing this to vickies video though which is what i would have thought it should look like

yb

[Vickie]

Oh no. They do not want to stop, they want to retrieve.

So then that's a pretty big difference.

I was just looking at another small clip of Trim, about her 2nd or 3rd time on sheep. I can't really post it b/c I'm not the one working her, so would need permission to post it. It's a shame though b/c it gives a perfect example of her bringing sheep into a corner & stopping naturally, without a command, just b/c it was right/instinctive to do so.

I have also heard of a lot of people who never introduce a sit/down/stop on their dogs until they have been on sheep a few times. You can see the difference between these dogs & dogs who have been taken in on lead & made to stop, b/c their eyes never leave the sheep. I have a nice book here, with that same concept...2 pics of 2 different dogs stopping. One says it's incorrect b/c the dog stops & turns to the handler & the other is correct b/c the dogs stops but never loses it's connection to the sheep.

[Vickie]

mind you as i said i could be all wrong just the dogs i saw didnt work neatly like the one on vickies video they tended to run a lot for the inexperienced being me it looked like dogs chasing sheep im comparing this to vickies video though which is what i would have thought it should look like

yb

Yb,

I certainly don't want to get into a breeding for work argument with anyone...again, but the difference is purely due to the fact that my dog has been bred, for hundreds of years, purely for one thing. I'm sure I could teach my older boy to herd, but the reality is that he would probably be very similar to the ones you saw...he just hasn't been bred selectively for it, despite being the same breed of dog.

[Kelpie-i]

Hi

Teaching general obedience ie sit, down etc won't go astray to begin with, but you also need to practice and work with these when the dog is in with stock. But as ML stated, you start off with tame sheep, perhaps no more than 3 or 4 of them in a small pen.

Working with ducks is also good as it teaches the dogs to go easy. I would not recommend "dry" training but would use things such as ducks and seagulls. I have a friend who whenever he sees a flock of seagulls, works his dog (on lead) and teaches him steady with them. It's a great concept b/c if his dog moves too fast too soon, the seaguls fly away, it also teaches a good natural stop. ;) It has worked very well for him.

[Sparty]

Bodie was only learning to change direction this weekend i think that was about all he would have coped with his first time, dont want to fry his poor puppy brain!!

he did drop when he thought he had them where he wanted them which apparently is undesireable??? as coming back up suddenly can scare the sheep??

[sidoney]

My experience is with pointing dogs and not herding dogs. A pointing dog will have a natural stop on a point of balance with the game. I am talking here about game that the dog and I can see, and that can see the dog. Hidden game is a little different.

I have observed that the dog will stalk the game and stop at the point where it is as close as possible to the game but before causing the game to flee. Some dogs may need some help at this point (so as not to flush the game) but as it's a natural place to the dog to stop, it's easy, a whisper can do it. In fact a low voice is better so as to not break the concentration of the dog.

The person can then come close to the dog, and the game will tend to stay put at the place it has taken, as it's watching the dog. The person can send the dog on to flush the game.

This is based on my observations with my own dogs. I've not done "proper" gundog training. Some of my dogs are more able to find that point of balance than others.

I think that there are parallels here with herding behaviours.

[Sparty]

when it comes down to it it just different types of hunting for different prey??

[Lablover]

Breed-typical motor pattersn

## = connected motor patterns CAPITALS = hypertrophied

( ) = fault

Wild type Orient## eye## stalk## chase## grab bite## kill-bite

LGD (Orient) (eye) (stalk) (chase) (grab bite) (kill-bite)

Header Orient## EYE## STALK## CHASE (grab bite) (kill-bite)

Heeler Orient## eye stalk CHASE## GRAB BITE (kill-bite)

Hound Orient## ---- Mark## CHASE## GRAB BITE## KILL BITE

Pointer Orient## EYE (stalk) (Chase) GRAB BITE (kill bite)

Retriever Orient## eye stalk chase GRAB BITE (kill bite)

[Lablover]

Damm. All my spacing disappeared. Oh well, aren't our different breeds wonderful.

[Tassie]

Aaah – a stop! I wish….

This is an interesting discussion, folks – hi Andrea, BTW, and ML. Some really good points made by Vickie and Kelpie-i in particular. IMO a lot depends on what you’re training for, and on the working instinct and style of the dog, and of the attitude of the dog. I started out with an ANKC group, but have been working for over a year with a trainer who is also a sheep farmer, whose dogs are working bred and whose trialling background is ISDS style. With my little girl, we had a hard time getting her out of splitting and chasing, virutually causing her to quit in the process - so then we had to work on building up her confidence and speed on getting round bigger mobs. We did the ‘bring sheep into the corner and hold’ sort of stop that Vickie describes, but didn’t force the issue too much beyond that.

It’s only now that she’s been working as a farm dog for several months, and is pretty confident in most of her jobs, that we’re really hammering the ‘stop’ – and still not asking for a lie down. In my trainer’s book, the stop should be rewarded by letting the dog have the sheep again pretty well straight away – unless you’re at a gate, of course – or it’s “That’ll do – i.e. work’s finished” She believes that the dog is more likely to give a stop if she knows she can have her sheep again.

We’re working on encouraging the dog to use her instincts and her reading of sheep, once she understands the job, and trying to keep commands to a minimum. (This is the exact opposite of the sort of micro-managing that you sometimes see - and it’s quite hard for someone coming from an obedience background.)

Don’t you love it when you have to apologize to the dog when she ignores or delays a flank or a stop because she read the sheep better than you did. My trainer says Kirra gets a look on her face that says “Geez Mom, aren’t you watching your sheep?”

Oh, and in relation to the comparison with retrieving - I think it's right that a working stock dog is required to use her instincts and reading of stock and work independently - after all, they will sometimes be working blind to the handler, and also they can notice individual sheep in a mob and adjust accordingly much better than most humans can. By the time you've given a command, the situation may have changed.

Barb

[WaikikamukauAussies]

Hi Barb!!

How are things going with the herding??

Not much here, another trial in September, Scandal is doing well, go most weekends & have just been walking with him & the sheep, going around obstacles & penning the sheep, think he'd prefer more than three sheep though, did that at lance's a whole flock & he was good,plus now I know he respects the sheep & knows to be gentle, took me MONTHS of work though & we are still learning.

*g* Maybe we will get invited to have a go at another sheep trial, think this time Scandal will be better!!

Fern will enter her next leg she has been in season so haven't been able to practice with her, I need to build her confidence up ( & mine) ;) though she is more slower & steadier at times.

Millie my puppy is 4mths mainly on a long leash so I have control, otherwise she isn't afraid & is flat out, trying to teach her to come to me when called & lots of praise!!

Hopefully Lance or someone will hold a weekend senimar in the warmer months as I learnt so much just over those few weekends.

Andrea, The Aussies, The Ponies & Joe

[Kelpie-i]

Great points you make Barb!

I don't know about you, but my dog makes me feel like an idiot when she reads the sheep better than I can ;)

She picks the head sheep out of the flock almost instantaneously and works with it. At the beginning we (includes my OH) would get frustrated b/c we didn't know what she was doing and thought we were doing something wrong ie. she would flank too high. By the trainer said that she was keeping an eye on the head sheep and to trust her judgement.

She believes that the dog is more likely to give a stop if she knows she can have her sheep again.

We used this method for both the stop and the recall off the sheep. Her ultimate reward was to return to the sheep.

[Guest cloverfdch]

What great reading this has been ;). It has given me alot to think about and work on. I did notice with Elvis on the weekend he would stop automatically when he had the sheep in a corner, or when he was attempting to bring them to me. It was just when he was out in the paddock that he just wanted to keep going.

[Sparty]

LOL and trying to restrain that mutant sheep!!! Bodie seemed to go into a down fairly often, dunno if it was "arrghh my brain is frying" or "hmm i have them where i want them now...."

[Vickie]

In my trainer’s book, the stop should be rewarded by letting the dog have the sheep again pretty well straight away – unless you’re at a gate, of course – or it’s “That’ll do – i.e. work’s finished” She believes that the dog is more likely to give a stop if she knows she can have her sheep again.

Nice to see you here & have your input Barb...

I think this can be the key to an enthusiastic call off. It has worked very well for us. That'll Do to Trim right now means, come off the sheep happily, move away a bit, flip around in a down & get ready to go again. It's pretty cute to watch & she really doesn't seem to mind too much when we really do stop.