"spitting Rewards"

[Sayreovi]

Ahh this is a good idea, i will try this techinique on Nova to see if i can finally get his attention when heeling. Would try it on Darcy but he is a bit unco and im trying to teach him to catch yeah i know not the best combination

[Kavik]

Just imagine the aim you'd need for a Papillon You'd need to spit it ahead of you so it would be in the right place when it gets to the dog's mouth

Would you do much attention work at all with an agility dog?

[sidoney]

Some, not too much. You need the dog to respond but you also don't want the dog's attention glued onto you. It needs to be able to switch - look at you when you want it to - or preferably a quick glance, as a head check slows a dog down, and look at where it's going the rest of the time. You do want the dog paying attention to you when it is on a stay for the lead-out, but you also want it to be assessing the obstacles in between you and it.

Mostly the dog will use its peripheral vision to watch the handler, and they can be very perceptive to your positioning and movement.

If a dog is stuck too much on the handler it will crash into things. Usually this comes about when a novice lures the dog over obstacles. The dog follows the lure and learns very little about obstacles, or about responding to handler cues and movement.

There are all sorts of foundation things you can do with your dog. Have you seen Greg Derrett's foundations video? If not, worth a look.

So long as the handler gives the dog training in working away, with some independence, even dogs that start with too much handler focus tend to learn to look at where they are going. If only so that they don't run into things. Although you'd better hope they don't hurt themselves in the meantime.

The opposite, a dog with too little handler focus, is probably numerically more common. You can recognise them by the speed with which they head away from their handlers to whatever is interesting them, and the desperation in the handler's voice as they try to call them back.

I liken obedience to dressage. As the head down position in the horse gives a blind spot ahead, forcing the horse to listen to its rider for directions, so the head up position on the dog makes it more difficult to see where it's going and it really has to pay attention to the handler.

With show jumping and cross country, the horse needs to look ahead at the obstacles, to see where it's going, to judge heights and distances, but the rider may bring the nose down between obstacles - more rider focus - in order to set a line or change speed or striding. In agility, the greatest skill is not getting over obstacles, it's handling the dog between them. On a straight or simple line you can basically let the dog be, but if you need a turn or a discrimination of some sort, you need the dog's attention between the obstacles. However you need to leave the dog alone to get over them once the dog has been set on its line. So many dropped bars are due to the handler in some way getting the dog's attention in the air, for example, the handler speaks, the dog head checks and stuffs its balance and drops a leg and down comes a bar. I have learned the hard way not to talk to my dogs when they are in the air.

[Kavik]

Definite similarity between dog and horse sports

Although I have done heaps of obedience with Zoe to try to fix her dog aggression, she knows the difference between what to do in obedience and what to do in agility. She certainly has obstacle focus! Although if I get confused about what to do, she will stop and look to me for directions (most common with a group of jumps and I can't remember the order!).

We do have the common problems of an obedience dog in agility - problems handling on the right hand side, and she does not work at a distance as well as I would like. But I can call her off jumps to go in a different direction and her recall is excellent. Something I must practice with Diesel more - I spend most of my time with him spitting food and practicing heeling

[sidoney]

Your description of Zoe reminds me of Shaula when I started with her in agility - she had an obedience title. She still finds it harder to work at a distance, but is vastly improved. However I have done only agility with her since we started.

I would imagine it's a matter of training them what to do in each. If Zoe's had more obedience training, then that might be showing. Plenty of dogs do very well in both. They would understand each activity and its requirements very well.

[Kavik]

Well doing anything with Zoe at the moment depends on whether I can control her dog aggression - my club have agreed to help find a non-reactive dog to help me and I will use the techniques K9 showed us at the seminar.

Barring that I hope to have convinced my OH to let me get another dog next year to do agility with, and will do the foundation work for it properly this time! Will need lots of help for that though - Zoe was my first attempt at agility. If only you could see how well she works! Ah, it is so frustrating!

Oh well, it is all a learning experience.

[EddyAnne]

Just imagine the aim you'd need for a Papillon You'd need to spit it ahead of you so it would be in the right place when it gets to the dog's mouth

Yep I can imagine, I feel that if you look at the size of a Papillon with the handler spitting treats, the spitting certainly would have to be pretty accurate with several factors in consideration. Meanwhile as the Papillion is focusing on the handler spitting treats they have less focus on the hands for signals including less focus on the legs for positioning, and especially less focus on the feet where they might suddenly experience getting trodden on or becoming a football. Believe me folks you can obtain full marks for heeling at trials without your dog focusing on your face, besides where in the ANKC Obedience Rules does it mention the dog has to focus on your face whilst heeling and if not the judge can impose a deduction.

[Steve K9Pro]

EA:

Yep I can imagine, I feel that if you look at the size of a Papillon with the handler spitting treats, the spitting certainly would have to be pretty accurate with several factors in consideration

K9: yes it would have to be if its was in YOUR best interest for the dog to catch the food, however, if you were at the workshop you would see there are many rules & parts to this program that mean that its in the DOGS best interest to catch the food.

EA:

Meanwhile as the Papillion is focusing on the handler spitting treats they have less focus on the hands for signals including less focus on the legs for positioning, and especially less focus on the feet where they might suddenly experience getting trodden on or becoming a football.

K9: maybe, with my method you dont need hand signals... Getting trodden on? I suppose thats never has happened when your training Eddy?

EA:

Believe me folks you can obtain full marks for heeling at trials without your dog focusing on your face,

K9: thanks Eddy, I cant see where anyone said that you couldnt...

EA:

besides where in the ANKC Obedience Rules does it mention the dog has to focus on your face whilst heeling and if not the judge can impose a deduction.

K9: where has anyone said that you would get a deduction if your dog didnt look at your face? Simply they didnt.

Whats your point Eddy...?

[PAX]

K9: maybe, with my method you dont need hand signals...

I need to teach hand signals for UD work so i do need them.

I also like my dog looking at me and cant see how he could miss a signal if he is looking at me

Edited July 18, 2005 by packsapunch

[aranyoz]

I just had to read this thread when I saw the title. After nearly 30 years in dogs I know you can always learn something new.

Thanl\ks guys it has been educational & entertaining.

Kerry

[Steve K9Pro]

P:

I need to teach hand signals for UD work so i do need them.

K9: this is for competition heeling, not distance commands.

[PAX]

I knew you would say that

Cant wait to come to your seminar

[Kavik]

Diesel has improved 100% since the seminar! I've stopped letting him have the ones he dropped It has improved his focus so much!

[EddyAnne]

G'day, Eddy here.

Spitting treats certainly could help heel training for medium to large dogs, and could help small dogs such as Papillons but as I mentioned for Papillion sized dogs your spitting certainly would have to be pretty accurate with several factors in consideration. Personally I feel for a small dog you would be better of throwing the treats from your hand, maybe similarly like playing shooting marbles, your hand would be closer to the dog so maybe more accuracy due to distance involved plus other factors, and the smaller dog won't have to arc their head around and up as much so less tendency to go out of heel position when moving.

I do throw treats as a stage of training to catching a small ball mid air, and on experience from this regarding small dogs well I don't spit or throw treats when heel training. I prefer to train the heel position first this in a static position (non moving position) where I train the sit, drop, stand and these in the heel position and doing these from one to another and using food treat rewards given from my hand. After a number of these short sessions and when the dog moves from one to another whilst still being in the heel position it is then I start mobile heeling stage, by first only taking a step and rewarding the dog for being in and maintaining the heel position for that step, then the number of steps taken are gradually increased with emphasis to avoid the dog going out of the heel position. I also introduce a stage of training where food treats are not even on me anywhere and where the doggie knows quite well the treats are well away elsewhere, and even in by using this you certainly can train heeling with the dog maintaining focus on either your face or hands or whatever, this even from the very start of training to heel, and this might suite dogs who say are not interested in food treats toys or faces or hands but more interested in other things elsewhere such as say the doggie prefers to focus on the scent on the ground or maybe the person nearby chopping away on a hamburger or maybe another dog piddling on the tree that your dog loves piddling on, yes even the dog that really wants to mark on trees can be used to train that dog to focus on your face or hands or whatever. One just has to know how to use what the dog really wants as a reward and you learn how to use that reward effectively in training this even if heel training.

Well I'll keep doing what I'm doing and who knows maybe what I mentioned here on the forum might help some others with smaller dogs or even with larger dogs, just as spitting treats mentioned on the forum might also help some others.

[Steve K9Pro]

EA:

Spitting treats certainly could help heel training for medium to large dogs, and could help small dogs such as Papillons

K9: wow, thanks for confirming what I have been doing the past 10 years works...

EA:

but as I mentioned for Papillion sized dogs your spitting certainly would have to be pretty accurate with several factors in consideration.

K9: as I said, there are several components to it. As you werent at the workshop, I wouldnt expect you to be up on those components.

EA:

Personally I feel for a small dog you would be better of throwing the treats from your hand, maybe similarly like playing shooting marbles, your hand would be closer to the dog so maybe more accuracy due to distance involved plus other factors, and the smaller dog won't have to arc their head around and up as much so less tendency to go out of heel position when moving.

K9: I dont like the dog focussing on the hand, it looks too much like luring.

I'll take your advice on & pass it on to anyone who isnt having success wityh what I have taught. As I havent come accross any yet, I dont think I will be calling you for further info.

EA:

I do throw treats

EA:

rewards given from my hand.

EA:

I also introduce a stage of training where food treats are not even on me anywhere and where the doggie knows quite well the treats are well away elsewhere,

K9: so you teach the dog that food comes from the hand, then spend time teaching the dog that food doesnt come from the hand.

Ok I get it...

EA:

and even in by using this you certainly can train heeling with the dog maintaining focus on either your face or hands or whatever

K9: again Eddy, no bidy said you cant...

EA:

Well I'll keep doing what I'm doing and who knows maybe what I mentioned here on the forum might help some others with smaller dogs or even with larger dogs, just as spitting treats mentioned on the forum might also help some others.

K9: the thread was started as Alibear was looking for clarification on something she picked up at my workshop, not a request for different heeling methods, & just in case you missed it the first two times, no one said this was the ONLY way, or that other ways wouldnt work.

[Kavik]

Clicker training is also popular for teaching the dog to look at your face. You hold the food away from your face, and click and treat when the dog looks at your face instead of the food. You are still giving the food from your hand though.

[sidoney]

I can see that for looking at the face, food coming from the mouth is an improved "placement of reward". I clicker trained one of my dogs to look at my face - she was very aware of the hand though - would look away from the face on the click.

[pawsaroundoz]

Hi All

I have been trying some of this, Carlin 'misses' quite a few, I have accidently swallowed a couple (yuk) and this week I had run out of Carlins treats but since my flat mate is in hospital and had a stick of some sort of garlic mettwursty stuff in the fridge I thought ah ha! Double yuk, cannot even put the stuff in my mouth!

Oh and not so long ago I actually got 'told off' at a dog club for 'allowing my dog to look at me so much' I kid you not!!

Anyway I may not be 'spitting' but I certainly have Carlins attention with this garlic stuff !!

It is fun though and that is what training dogs is all about!...or at least should be!!

annie and carlin

[Staranais]

OK, dumb question for you treat-spitting people, from someone who wasn't at the seminar...

If you're teaching competition heeling, and rewarding the dog by spitting treats at him while he's in heel position, he's going to be focusing on your face, right? But since the dog is trying to keep your face in view while he's heeling, doesn't that mean he'll have a tendancy to surge ahead?

I'm thinking specifically of a short dog like mine. Normally when I heel him, he watches my knees since they're right at his height! I doubt he could see my face from regular heel position, unless I turned my head to look at him.

Obviously spitting for heeling works or you wouldn't all be doing it - so what am I missing?

Also, what kinds of things are people spitting at their dogs? I normally reward my boy with cubes of old, smelly luncheon or sausage - no way I'm putting them anywhere near my mouth!

[Steve K9Pro]

A:

If you're teaching competition heeling, and rewarding the dog by spitting treats at him while he's in heel position, he's going to be focusing on your face, right? But since the dog is trying to keep your face in view while he's heeling, doesn't that mean he'll have a tendancy to surge ahead?

K9: lol, we really on,y touched on the method at the workshop. The food is spat out your mouth over your left shoulder, if the dog isnt in the heel position the food hits the ground, the dog doesnt want that is there is a rule in place, dropped food is misse food.

A:

Also, what kinds of things are people spitting at their dogs? I normally reward my boy with cubes of old, smelly luncheon or sausage - no way I'm putting them anywhere near my mouth!

K9: try cabanossi.