Over Vaccinating

[White Shepherd mom]

Does anyone out there know anything about the topic of over-vaccinating? I believe that some vaccines do not need to be repeated annualy and we could be harming our dogs more than helping them by vaccinating as much as we do.

I am especially asking as my one dog is epileptic and I've heard that vaccines can sometimes bring on seizures. As he is almost due his annual shots, I thought I would throw the question out there.

Thanks

Ann.

[Guest Dianne]

Hi Ann,

In a word and IMHO to your topic title "Are annual vaccines too much?"

YES.

But I am sure others will disagree.

Try these links to make your own choices.

Dianne

Vaccination Info

and another

from the U.K.

Pro site

[White Shepherd mom]

Hi Dianne,

Thank you for your opinion which echoes my own. I have read up on the subject but from US sources so was wondering what Australian dog owners think.

Do you vaccinate annualy? Have you heard of titers? Have you tried them?

Thanks,

Ann.

[Miranda]

Hi Ann,

In a word and IMHO to your topic title "Are annual vaccines too much?"

YES.

I agree with Dianne and no, I don't vaccinate annually.

[poodlefan]

Had a looong chat to my vet about this last week.

Apparently we will see the AVA recommended vaccination schedule change soon. Parvo and Kennel Cough (which like flu vaccine changes) will remain annual jabs because the immunity in them doesn't last long.

All others will be either two or three year jabs.

I still vaccinate annually, mainly due to the fact that my dogs are exposed to many dogs and also to foxes. Foxes are a primary source of distemper in Australia. However, none of my dogs have had an adverse reaction to their vaccinations and I'm very risk averse on this issue.

Forgot to add: Titres only measure the immunity level in the dog on the day and this can vary quite significantly. You also need a base line to work on.

Edited July 1, 2005 by poodlefan

[PAX]

Vaccination protocol will change this year. There is a big forum coming up soon........July i think and one of the vaccs is now proven to be affective for 36 months. I would just keep an eye on DOL i'm sure it will be posted when more information is available.

[White Shepherd mom]

this is all great news. I spoke to my vet about this and she didn't seem to know anything about it. I was surprised though when she said that Murdoch University, here in WA, does titers. I've heard of it being done in the States but didn't know it had reached our shores yet.

I look forward to the vaccine protocols becoming more modern.

[SengeChow]

There is a great deal of research available on the issue of vaccines. The American Veterinarian protocol is the precursor for what is being brought in here; however, it is *very* conservative in its approach and advocates what will probably be proven eventually to still be too frequent vaccinations.

Personally, I would recommend anyone really interested in what the research is showing to read thoroughly the results of the research conducted by W. Jean Dodds and her colleagues. It is her research that has brought about the changes in the US protocol (and hence the Australian protocol).

Much of that research isn't yet being full accepted, but it does show that immunizations shouldn't probably be given to puppies until two weeks after they are *natrually* weaned (as opposed to breeder imposed weaning) and only ONE puppy vax at that time, followed by one additional vax 12 months out and that that 12 month vax is pretty much sufficient for life (most vaccines have an efficacy of about 7-10 years.

Further, most of the O/S vets who take the research seriously only suggest C-3 vaccines and don't recommend Bordetella, corona virus or leptospirosis (or in No. America -Lyme vaccines) unless these diseases are endemic either in the local area or specific kennel.

However, most vets to whom we all go for our pet care are GPs and are often too busy to keep up with the most recent research - they rely on the AVA to let them know of changes in recommended protocol, and sometimes even those changes take a long time to be seen to be put into place.

Don't hesitate to question your vets and don't hesitate to read for yourself all the research you can put your hands on, even if some of the medical jargon is above your head - you'll pick up most the important information or you can get someone to interpret it for you.

And Ann, since you are in WA, there is a vet in practice in the Perth area, whose first name is Clare/Claire and who is both an allopathic vet and a naturopathic vet and is very familar with Jean Dodd's research. FWIW, Jean will be in Perth this time next year and I understand Clare/Claire is hoping to get her to do something for the dog/vet community specific to publically addressing just this question of vaccines.

Cheers,

Judith-Ann

[espinay2]

I am another one who doesn't vaccinate annually. It is a move my vet does not have a problem with either which is great. Definitely quite a few people out there that feel this way. After doing a lot of research it is a move I am comfortable with.

I will be interested to hear what the AVA comes up with, although be prepared for it to be a conservative move. You will find that most official organisations will not move as fast as current thinking, particularly when money and big business with strong lobby groups comes into play.

[White Shepherd mom]

Thank you for your reply Judith-Ann. I have been reading about these new protocols on the web which is why I thought I would ask the question on this forum to find out people's thoughts. I have heard of and read Dr Jean Dodds writings. She is mentioned a lot in the epileptic-canine world for her ground breaking work on thyroid problems. She must be one busy lady!

I did speak to my vet about the subject and she merely said that legally they are still required to vaccinate annually...I took my dog and hightailed it out of there before she had time to bring out the needle! As you say, they don't seem to be up to speed on the subject.

Please share anything new you might find out about.

Thanks again.

[Akitaowner]

yep but see my topic on boarding kennels without vaccines - in general discussion from the last couple of weeks - kennels, training and insurance companies insist u vaccinate every 12 months....kinda prohibits a lot of people i know until the system catches up with the research....

[White Shepherd mom]

Akitaowner,

Yes, I know the kennel and training requirements although I did forget all about it. Now that you've reminded me it kinda puts a damper on my taking Casper for training. As far as you're aware, are titers not accepted?

[Akitaowner]

i guess it depends on the club and how thorough they are - my plan was for training and kennels too to flash a piece of vet letter headed paper under their nose with a due date on - and result of titre test - hope they dont notice the dogs are covered anyway so no probs!!

but if they change the vaccine schedule as stated above the vacc cert should stand for 2-3 yrs....rather than 12 months in which case we wouldnt really need titre tests every 12 months either

i asked a few boarding kennels and they didnt really know what i was talking about when i asked about accepting titres they said they didnt take unvaccinated dogs i tried to explain but dont think i got thru....

training maybe different - run by lots of doggy people and therefore maybe more knowledge of the testing??

[SengeChow]

Ann & Mav,

Can't comment on boarding kennels - have way too many dogs to be able to afford a kennel - much easier to have a niece or older child of friends house & dog sit if we're away for any length of time.

As for training, talk to some of the R+ trainers - most of them are much more up to speed on health issues than many dog owners/breeders including the issues of vaccines so are a bit more open to dogs that have been at least vaccinate or who have titre tests showing adequate levels of antibodies.

Ann, as for your vet saying she had a legal obligation to vaccinate annually, I would question that one. What law dictates this? Could be WA is different, but I've yet to see posted anywhere that a council/state requires a vet to vaccinate all its dog clients every year. How could this be enforced? What about dogs with compromised immune systems? What about elderly dogs who could easily succumb to vaccinosis because of their necessarily reduced immune response?

I know the RSPCA (along with most GP vets and councils and...) recommend annual vaccines, but legal obligation? Do you have to have a vaccine card to register your dogs in WA? We don't here in Victoria.

Cheers,

Judith-Ann

[Kirra_Bomber_Zeus]

Ann, as for your vet saying she had a legal obligation to vaccinate annually, I would question that one. What law dictates this? Could be WA is different, but I've yet to see posted anywhere that a council/state requires a vet to vaccinate all its dog clients every year. How could this be enforced? What about dogs with compromised immune systems? What about elderly dogs who could easily succumb to vaccinosis because of their necessarily reduced immune response?

Yes, I was going to comment on this as well. I am in Perth and there is no legal obligation for the vet to vaccinate at all.

I think its more the case that the AVA (who are in deepr with the pharmacutical (sp?) companies who make the vaccines) frowns upon vets who tell people not to vaccinate (just the same as they have been doing with vets who suggest raw feeding). Luckily research is finally making it to the surface so these 'protocols' can be changed.

SengeChow is right, most vaccines have a life of 7-10 years. This means your dog should only ever have to be vaccinated 1-2 times in their entire life. I cant understand how the vets can not see the commonsense in this. You can not become 'more immune' to something so there is no benefit in 'booster' shots!

As many of you know by now I have done enough research on the subject to know I will never vaccinate again. I have seen way too many cases of vaccinosis (especially the cases that get passed off as something else by vets who dont want to report the adverse reactions - because of this the 'facts and figures' you get about adverse reactions are grossly understated.)

Jen

[White Shepherd mom]

Judith-Ann, I am new to WA and have not yet registered the dogs. I hope I don't need a vaccination certificate? In Sydney, they were both lifetime registered and I used their "adoption" papers, which of course stated that they were vaccinated.

Yeh, what's with the vet and legal obligations? Are you suggesting she was putting me on? I would not be surprised. I wonder what she meant exactly. My dog has a compromised immune system which is why I have not taken him for his vaccines.

What's an R+ trainer?

Mav, I'm looking forward to seeing the vaccine requirements change to 2-3 year...the vets won't be pleased with the loss of revenue unless they all start doing titers. Let me know how it goes with flashing the titer results under a trainer's nose without them noticing...I wish you luck!

[SengeChow]

Hi Ann,

I suspect your vet was not necessarily trying to hoodwink you with the legal obligation comment, just very misguided in her interpretation of her obligations as a vet. However, if she is seemingly unaware that a dog with a compromised immune system should be exempt from all future vaccines, I would check around til I found a vet that had a more open mind. Jen may be able to suggest some.

An R+ trainer is a positive reinforcement trainer - eg, clicker training, Delta Society and the like.

As for registering the dogs, call the local council and ask what's necessary - usually you have a grace period.

Cheers,

Judith-Ann

[Kirra_Bomber_Zeus]

However, if she is seemingly unaware that a dog with a compromised immune system should be exempt from all future vaccines, I would check around til I found a vet that had a more open mind. Jen may be able to suggest some.

My thoughts exactly.

I have been going to Vetwest in Canning Vale and even though they are a conventional vet I was straight up front with them and told them I raw feed, wont give my dogs any drugs unless it is absolutely necessary and will not be vaccinating my dogs again. Explained to her that one of my dogs had had an adverse reaction and now has a skin condition because of a damaged immune system.

The vet was really great about it. They have even put a large note on the computer that comes up on the screen when they go into my dogs file that says "No medication or vaccinations to be given without the express permission of owner".

there is also a lovely homeopathic vet called Clare Middle (I think someone mentioned her in a previous post - not sure) she is in Bibra Lake and is excellent for any long term or chronic problems. (She may be able to help with your dogs compromised immune system too)

Jen

[SengeChow]

Jen wrote:

there is also a lovely homeopathic vet called Clare Middle (I think someone mentioned her in a previous post - not sure) she is in Bibra Lake and is excellent for any long term or chronic problems. (She may be able to help with your dogs compromised immune system too)

Ann, this is the exact vet I was referring to in previous notes. Since I don't know Perth or its surrounds well at all, I can't advise where she is in relation to where you are. I do know that it can take 3 weeks to get in to see her, but all reports about her are excellent.

Cheers,

Judith-Ann

[LouiseBrooks]

Before this section started up these queries were in the General Discussion area.

Last week for someone I went into that section typed vaccinations.

There are some great threads there and with very interesting reading.

After that I stopped the annual vaccinations and my dogs health has improved in particular the one with very bad allergies now they are mild allergies.

BTW my vet did not raise an eyebrow when I said I was following the American protocol, so they have heard about it.