Coolibah Coolies Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Hi Guys, wondering if you can help me I have a rescue dog here he is a kelpie desexed male about 18 month old very untrained but is a nice dog, overwieght but I am working on that. Tiger goes mad when he sees my 8 year old daughter, but he is confusing he barks, bares his teeth wags and play bows all at once, he is ok with a 13 year old girl from next door and adults and little kids, do you think he is wanting to play or wanting to eat her?? I can take some pics or a short video in the morning if that would help. He needs a strong hand as he is so strong and tends to jump up and nip me for attention this is anoying only, not dangerous but needs to stop before I can rehome him. Thanks in advance Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 (edited) I can take some pics or a short video in the morning if that would help. It is too difficult to attempt to interpret your dog's body language - particularly as "baring teeth" is a factor and suggests the situation might be potentially and imminently dangerous, without seeing some piccies/movie clip. From your description, it sounds to me as if this tiger is exploring and asserting heirarchy status, perhaps even on you ... but I'd love to see movie clip if possible, or at least some still shots. Can you arrange this? In the meantime, I'd be inclined to make sure the dog and children are never left unsupervised around the dog (you're probably already doing that). Note that a wagging tail indicates arousal .... it doesn't necessarily mean friendship. Playbow can be 1. Invitation to play (in your case I doubt it) 2. Punctuation mark in play (when one dog has become rough & wants to signal no threat/harm intended) 3. Calming signal to another dog who's a little apprehensive 4. Signal to another dog of a small degree of uncertainty. When your dog play bows, is it a full on "relaxed" play bow (eg. elbows on ground, body stretched right back, bum right up in the air) or does it appear a bit tense (eg. perhaps elbows slightly off the ground and general appearance tense)? Edited June 15, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Can you really tell from a picture For example - this is play - how can you tell from the picture and differentiate it from real fighting? It'd be interesting to learn. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolibah Coolies Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Thank you for your swift reply I dont leave him near Amy at all and I will take some pics in the morning he hears her from his Kennel and starts barking she is terified as my dogs are all sweeties and would never hurt any one, I will try and video in the morning for you. Thanks again ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Can you really tell from a pictureFor example - this is play - how can you tell from the picture and differentiate it from real fighting? It'd be interesting to learn. Nat Are still pictures ideal, Nat? Not on your nelly. But certainly more than what we have so far .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Just a comment on the 'play bow.' I have seen certain breeds that show aggression in a similar position. It has been speculated that the reason for this is so the dog has some leverage with which to spring if it is going to attack. Where are his ears and tail when this happens? Up and forward, down and back, do they flick between the two? How many teeth can you see, mainly the front ones or can you see right down the back? Does the dog stare, avoid eye contact or does his focus change often? Is there any piloerection (hackles raised)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitKat Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Some dogs also 'grin' infact it can be a characteristic of some breeds...i recently met a border collie that 'grinned' bared teeth and all but it was an excited greeting not aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Just a comment on the 'play bow.'I have seen certain breeds that show aggression in a similar position. It has been speculated that the reason for this is so the dog has some leverage with which to spring if it is going to attack. Where are his ears and tail when this happens? Up and forward, down and back, do they flick between the two? How many teeth can you see, mainly the front ones or can you see right down the back? Does the dog stare, avoid eye contact or does his focus change often? Is there any piloerection (hackles raised)? Hi Haven - I haven't seen any dogs (or any pictures of dogs) demonstrating what I would refer to as a "play bow" in aggression. I can only imagine the "bow" in the situation you refer to may not be the "right down" type of bow to which I refer. Perhaps with less "curve" through the back and with elbows more raised and legs poised for "pounce"? If so, this isn't what I refer to as a "play bow" .... but then I don't profess to have seen everything (yet!). Can you describe, or do you have any pictures? Little nuances can make the biggest of differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 (edited) Some dogs also 'grin' infact it can be a characteristic of some breeds...i recently met a border collie that 'grinned' bared teeth and all but it was an excited greeting not aggression. Like this, Kitkat? ETA: Damn .... why won't my picture upload??? Edited June 15, 2005 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 (edited) Can you describe, or do you have any pictures? Little nuances can make the biggest of differences. It's hard to describe. Very similar to a play bow but can be much more prolonged and intense. Can be right down on the elbows with a pronounced curve of the back, a half bow or switching between the two. ETA: often there is 'shuffling' along on the elbows as the dog barks. Nova does it when her motivation goes into overdrive, she gets frustrated and all reason goes out the window Don't have pics but I may be able to get some. Having said that I've been waiting nearly six months now....... Mainly I've seen it in Rotti's but have seen it in other breeds during protection training. I think it also has to do with the dog's drive fulfillment being inhibited by the control (either on lead, or command control off lead) of the owner. The reason I posted is that not everyone would know the difference between this and the play bow on sight and I wouldn't want anyone thinking play bow position always = ok. Edited June 15, 2005 by haven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love-my-dog Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 NAT Where is the bone?? looks like a food challenge to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 NO bone, it was strictly wrestle/chasing play at a park. Neither of them challenge the other for bones. Collies do "smile" a lot though and it looks like aggressive to some people. I wasn't trying to show you up Erny or make your request seem silly - I simply wanted to know how you can tell from piccies! Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Without seeing the dog in action it may be impossible to comment on exactly what you may be seeing. I will add the following however: In respect to the 'play bow' it may denote any manner of things depending on the situation. It can most typically denote a 'ready' position. Whether the following action is agonistic or more benign will depend on a lot of factors. I believe I mentioned in another thread that wolves have been known to play bow to their prey. From there they may chase/catch/kill (or any of the action sequence up to this final point) or decide not to. With respect to baring teeth, this too can depend on a lot of factors. Many breeds do 'smile' in a way that looks agonistic but is in fact can sometimes be more of a submissive gesture. Dalmatians for example are a breed renowned for their 'smiling', so a dog baring its teeth may or may not be making an aggressive gesture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Some dogs also 'grin' infact it can be a characteristic of some breeds...i recently met a border collie that 'grinned' bared teeth and all but it was an excited greeting not aggression. http://www.bcrescue.org/smiling.html This may go some way to help define a smile /snarl we have always had a dog or two who "smile"...it is a bit tricky if you don't now your dog first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I've got 2 for you. What can you tell from those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Jaws 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Well in the first pic the dog is licking lips - calming signal I think. Playing but not quite comfortable? This is kinda fun Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 (edited) this was in between the two. I hope you can see which one is which (one has a pinkish collar on) I will add that all this was VERY vocal Edited June 16, 2005 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Myszka Is that dog porn your showing???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 No they are a married couple and she is preagnant (with him) He is just checking if the pupps are moving LOL caring father LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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