Using Drive In Basic Obedience

[Lablover]

Hi everyone,

Since K9's seminar my dogs have improved in retaining their focus for longer periods of time during training -notably the teaching phase by using prey drive. I have for many years been aware that dogs without focus cannot learn. Previously if I kept their FULL focus and their energy levels high for 10 minutes (12 week old for example) of continuous training twice a day I would have been happy.

I have ceased using food rewards/lures from my program the more dramatic results being evident with my 6 month old pups, utilising now solely prey drive.

Since the seminar I have tried to expand on my knowledge of using drive.I thought that would be more prudent instead of Emailing or telephoning Steve every week or so, LOL.

But questions still remain:

Starting food lure/bribes with baby pups, and then moving to other types of drives, is not thought ideal. Why?? Surely a reward is a reward?

Why is the use of prey drive better?

When using prey drive can chase drive be included (as long as we have control

of the item being chased and do not allow bad habits as in the dog gaining success not from us as handlers)? Rag on a length of rope being one example.

Using prey drive can apparently be used for pups as young as 6 weeks of age. What articles could be used, as the pups are unco-ordinated at this age. My throwing of a paint roller with a plastic insert could possibly discourage a baby pup, my tossing of articles is not all that great!!! Is using a favourite soft toy OK? As baby pups are unco-ordinated, is it best to use an object that glides somewhat?

During young dog teething do you cease prey drive exercises, until the adult teeth are down.?

How long is the window of opportunity open for in obtaining the highest possible genetic prey drive? The books I have read are somewhat confusing. A couple mention 12 -1 8 months, another highly respected person 7 months.

Many many more questions to come.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Lablover

[Hownd]

Heres my half arsed opinion

Starting food lure/bribes with baby pups, and then moving to other types of drives, is not thought ideal. Why?? Surely a reward is a reward?

A reward is something the dog finds rewarding, at a young age you are still able to significantly influence what this will be. Why would you spend time promoting food if your going to train in prey?

Why is the use of prey drive better?

It isn't, Its just different. To make a sweeping generalisation, go with what your dogs genetically predisposed to.

When using prey drive can chase drive be included (as long as we have control

of the item being chased and do not allow bad habits as in the dog gaining success not from us as handlers)? Rag on a length of rope being one example.

Using prey drive can apparently be used for pups as young as 6 weeks of age. What articles could be used, as the pups are unco-ordinated at this age. My throwing of a paint roller with a plastic insert could possibly discourage a baby pup, my tossing of articles is not all that great!!! Is using a favourite soft toy OK? As baby pups are unco-ordinated, is it best to use an object that glides somewhat?

Go for it. Without trying to open up a can of worms, Chase is just a component of Prey so why leave it out.

A flirt pole is a good thing with pups. An old fishing rod or length of dowel with a light rope and rag/toy tied to the end. (drives em nuts)

During young dog teething do you cease prey drive exercises, until the adult teeth are down.?

I've never stopped and haven't had any dental problems with dogs so far.

How long is the window of opportunity open for in obtaining the highest possible genetic prey drive? The books I have read are somewhat confusing. A couple mention 12 -1 8 months, another highly respected person 7 months.

Possible genetic prey drive is fixed at mating, how much and for how long you can promote prey in your pup is beyond me, some people will say 12 months others will say if you can still achieve further gains after 6 months you weren't doing it right to start with.

I spoke with a guy doing a PHD on this exact question recently, I'll see if I can find his stuff and post you a link.

[Steve K9Pro]

LL:

Starting food lure/bribes with baby pups, and then moving to other types of drives, is not thought ideal. Why?? Surely a reward is a reward?

K9: think in terms of drive satisfaction. If you have a desire to make money, will you settle for a piece of chocolate instead?

If the dog has a strong prey drive, & you intend using that drive, working with that drive will also aid in developing that drive, ie teaching the dog the power it has in the drive.

LL:

Why is the use of prey drive better?

K9: its only of any use if the dog has a low threshold to a moderate or high prey drive. No use if it has low prey drive or weak nerves.

If you have an equally motivated dog by food & prey, I still prefer prey as a drive is an adrenalin based behaviour, there is a greater adrenalin flow for a prey item than a piece of food.

Food isnt often trying to escape or even hard to catch.

The more adrenalin, the higher the charge in the dog, the more energy it will put into satisfying that drive.

LL:

When using prey drive can chase drive be included (as long as we have control

of the item being chased and do not allow bad habits as in the dog gaining success not from us as handlers)? Rag on a length of rope being one example.

K9: yes as chase is not a drive of its own, its a component of prey.

LL:

Using prey drive can apparently be used for pups as young as 6 weeks of age. What articles could be used, as the pups are unco-ordinated at this age. My throwing of a paint roller with a plastic insert could possibly discourage a baby pup, my tossing of articles is not all that great!!! Is using a favourite soft toy OK? As baby pups are unco-ordinated, is it best to use an object that glides somewhat?

K9: When working with a whole litter at a time, I use a broomstick, piece of rope off each side & rag attached to both sides & run around the pen.

I am looking for the dog with the greatest desire to capture the rag.

I then move to a fishing line also, with rag. Then bounce it around with the pup I have chosen from the first excercise.

LL:

During young dog teething do you cease prey drive exercises, until the adult teeth are down.?

K9: no, I just tug the rag from the pups mouth. In my work, I want the dog to bite & hold until I say let go.

I will let the pup capture the item & then it lays down & chews it, when it drops it (dead prey) I tug it away & frustrate the pup again. This teaches the pup not to let go.

By the time it wont, its old enough to teach the out.

LL:

How long is the window of opportunity open for in obtaining the highest possible genetic prey drive? The books I have read are somewhat confusing. A couple mention 12 -1 8 months, another highly respected person 7 months.

K9: Its my belief that you can greatly increase, or, raise a dogs drive to its genetic capability between the ages of 6 weeks to 12 months.

12 months & beyond is where I go for intense focus of that developed drive.

You can start anytime, but I dont think you will reach the same levels you would if you start young.

No one could prove or disprove this theory though.

I agree that the drive is set by genetics, but development teaches the dog how best to use this drive to gain satisfaction.

[Kavik]

Many of the sites and tapes I have looked at that deal with competition obedience (even from trainers who use prey drive in other aspects and do Schutzhund etc) still use food as their preference for heeling. (eg Tom Rose I have seen on the Leerburg competition heeling tape).

Why would they advocate this if prey drive was the more useful one to use (assuming these dogs have good prey drive for Schutzhund)? Especially in teaching attention food seems to be the more popular method, either food from mouth or using a clicker.

[Steve K9Pro]

Why would they advocate this if prey drive was the more useful one to use (assuming these dogs have good prey drive for Schutzhund)? Especially in teaching attention food seems to be the more popular method, either food from mouth or using a clicker.

K9: I think you will find Toms tape is an old one, Bernhard Flinks is what is known as a drive master.

Food though is more widely accepted, so its going to suit more dogs.

[Lablover]

Umm. I have always used food in the past when luring young pups. I must experiment with my next puppy, which unfortunately due to the number of dogs I currently own, will be a while.

If you have an equally motivated dog by food & prey, I still prefer prey as a drive is an adrenalin based behaviour, there is a greater adrenalin flow for a prey item than a piece of food.

Food isnt often trying to escape or even hard to catch.

The more adrenalin, the higher the charge in the dog, the more energy it will put into satisfying that drive.

Makes sense.

LL:

QUOTE

Using prey drive can apparently be used for pups as young as 6 weeks of age. What articles could be used, as the pups are unco-ordinated at this age. My throwing of a paint roller with a plastic insert could possibly discourage a baby pup, my tossing of articles is not all that great!!! Is using a favourite soft toy OK? As baby pups are unco-ordinated, is it best to use an object that glides somewhat?

K9: When working with a whole litter at a time, I use a broomstick, piece of rope off each side & rag attached to both sides & run around the pen.

I am looking for the dog with the greatest desire to capture the rag.

One of my all time favourite tests. I like the young pups who never give up. I also take young pups to a new paddock with distractions and I like they ones that remain focused on the rag. It is a good water test too.

I then move to a fishing line also, with rag. Then bounce it around with the pup I have chosen from the first excercise.

Now I am confused again. What exactly do you do? Instead of giving myself another headache because of pondering could you give further details?

LL:

QUOTE

During young dog teething do you cease prey drive exercises, until the adult teeth are down.?

K9: no, I just tug the rag from the pups mouth. In my work, I want the dog to bite & hold until I say let go.

I admit I focus on obedience during the teething. Softie I am, as I worry about their sore gums and do not want to discourage them in any way. Probably would not make any difference??

I will let the pup capture the item & then it lays down & chews it, when it drops it (dead prey) I tug it away & frustrate the pup again. This teaches the pup not to let go.

By the time it wont, its old enough to teach the out.

I greatly discourage chewing on the retrieving article, by having control by a long rope and as much puppy recall response as possible. Mouth issues had been a problem with my male, which you kindly suggested drills for, which have been wonderful. He was not allowed to chew toys but was allowed to play with toys. Different kettle of fish.

[Lablover]

Trying to use quotes, sucks!!!! Sorry.

[Steve K9Pro]

LL

One of my all time favourite tests. I like the young pups who never give up. I also take young pups to a new paddock with distractions and I like they ones that remain focused on the rag. It is a good water test too.

K9: so you choose a dog based on prey drive, it makes sense to train in that drive, correct?

LL"

Now I am confused again. What exactly do you do? Instead of giving myself another headache because of pondering could you give further details?

K9: Ok, after playing with the litter & choosing a pup, I take that pup from the litter & go to a fishing rod, this has a line attached & rag to that.

This gives me the ability to stand back 6ft (length of rod) & watch while I put max movement into the rag, without much effort on my part.

It also takes me out of the equation & make sure that the dog is chasing the rag in full prey drive, not rank or pack drive driven by littermates.

It also makes sure the dog has no conflict with me, as Im 6 foot away.

LL:

I admit I focus on obedience during the teething. Softie I am, as I worry about their sore gums and do not want to discourage them in any way. Probably would not make any difference??

K9: may actually help, pups love to chew when teething.

LL:

I greatly discourage chewing on the retrieving article, by having control by a long rope and as much puppy recall response as possible. Mouth issues had been a problem with my male, which you kindly suggested drills for, which have been wonderful. He was not allowed to chew toys but was allowed to play with toys. Different kettle of fish.

K9: chewing isnt permitted in my work either, but as you can see, I have no problem fixing that later.

Its more of a problem for me being a contester for the prey so I dont mind young pups chewing.

[Kavik]

So what do you do if the dog has weak nerves? Is food the best option then?

Diesel's nerves are good but Zoe's are not. Seeing them both in prey drive they are very different - Diesel's is certainly more workable - I'm just waiting for you to show me how properly!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: weak nerves are a problem in any training program, what more often than not happens is that the dog has a low threshold to avoidance or defence drive, & keeps jumping in & out of those drives, thus cannot stay in food or prey drive & motivation keeps disapearing.

Weak nerves are usually the case for a washout working or sport dog.

[Kavik]

Zoe's attention for food is very good and it is what I have used with her mainly. I can't keep her attention with a toy outside of the yard, and when I use it then she really gets overexcited, and if there are other dogs around her aggression is much worse.

I haven't got Diesel's prey drive up to what I want - he is good in the yard, ok when out. He appears much calmer even when in drive to Zoe - much happier while Zoe is manic, he is quiet, Zoe is noisy (growls and barks) and Diesel has no problem with other dogs even when in drive.

[Kavik]

A question on drive building (the part I have problems with!):

I know that frustration builds drive.

But how do you know how far to push before the dog gives up? I know my main problem is that I let the dog win too easily, but I worry that if he is not able to get the prey item he will give up.

[MonElite]

Zoe's attention for food is very good and it is what I have used with her mainly. I can't keep her attention with a toy outside of the yard, and when I use it then she really gets overexcited, and if there are other dogs around her aggression is much worse.

I haven't got Diesel's prey drive up to what I want - he is good in the yard, ok when out. He appears much calmer even when in drive to Zoe - much happier while Zoe is manic, he is quiet, Zoe is noisy (growls and barks) and Diesel has no problem with other dogs even when in drive.

I think what yu want to say is that Zoe changes into guard drive (from prey) and Diesel stays in prey (thats why he is not bothered about other dogs)

yes?

[Kavik]

She resource guards if I use prey drive with her. If we are playing tug, and Diesel comes over to see what we are doing, she will have a go at him.

If I am tugging with Diesel and Zoe is near, she will intimidate Diesel so he lets her tug instead (which is why I don't do drive building when they are together).

I think Zoe just gets overstimulated, and thus her aggression comes out more. Same thing happens at agility, if she is wound up from doing agility she is more likely to be aggressive in the same situation that if we were doing heeling instead she would be fine. So most of my training with her focuses on food which helps her to be calm, and she can focus, while prey winds her up too much.

Just a totally different kettle of fish to Diesel, who backs away when confronted with a noisy pack of three Mini Schnauzers at training

[MonElite]

corect me if Im wrong someone, please

my understanding of prey is a chase not a tug.

Yes the dog might get a bit of a tug as a reward but prey is actually not giving it, giving it or a tug is a reward.

[Kavik]

Yeah but will they chase if they never get to win the article? (tug or ball or whatever)?

I guess they will as Zoe chases reflections and torch lights and can never catch these . . .

But we generally want to use the article to teach something so give as a reward for correct action, so we give it to them then right?

I get confused here

[MonElite]

Yeah but will they chase if they never get to win the article? (tug or ball or whatever)?

oh but the do get it.

[PAX]

Myszka,

Sorry honey but i think your wrong. When a working dog bites the arm they are still in prey drive, in fact they probably get more drive..........remember the videos you showed me...........lol.

I think a good tug gets them really revved up. I'm bad i even slap my dog around while he is tugging he loves it he goes nuts.....I say to him "dont shake the baby" he growls and goes stupid.

This is bad I am admitting how weird i am

[MonElite]

Thanks pucksapunch - I knew I might be wrong....

however since there are few steps/parts of the "drive" the last one (the bite) is a step and is a reward.

Now K9 will come and will tell me that I should watch those videos again

And I really shouldnt talk.... after all I never trained my dog in prey drive, whats more my dog has no prey drive anyway

But I love the discussion

Edited June 16, 2005 by myszka

[Lablover]

LL:

I admit I focus on obedience during the teething. Softie I am, as I worry about their sore gums and do not want to discourage them in any way. Probably would not make any difference??

K9: may actually help, pups love to chew when teething.

They get plenty of bones to chew on, sticks, anything they can get their mouths around. My concern is my throwing ability.. As they obey for example sit, I instantly throw them an article to catch. Same with stopping on command, heeling. If they are close it is not a problem, but with distance unfortunately my aim may not be so good, LOL.

Edited June 16, 2005 by Lablover